Sunday, February 5, 2017

The Right's War On Truth

Before linking to articles examining the history of the Right’s war on truth, I offer these introductory remarks.
==
Traditional American conservatism has been transformed into a radical Right "Movement Conservatism" (con-servatism), and has gone from pledging to support and defend the Constitution, to pledging to support and defend the wealth of the elites.

The radical Right MUST LIE, because they represent a powerful and wealthy anti-democracy minority bent on one-party rule. They serve that political power, and their god called the “Free Market”. Their god has no conscience, no morals, and no regard for our air, water and planet.

Slavery and child labor were once in service to their Free Market God, just as science denial, environmental degradation, union busting, and opposition to minimum wage and job safety standards are today.

This is the unspoken truth in both our culture and corporate/government complex.

We who seek and share the truth now find we are out on the "Reality Fringe". It is the place not to be recognized, to be dismissed by the corporate media, ownership class, and extremist political culture.

Con-servatism is based on beliefs focused on self interest, but over-proportionally benefiting the economic elites, all under the banner of their false god.

Progressivism is based on facts and reason, focused on the common good.

While we reject their beliefs, they reject facts and reason. 'Twas ever thus.

==

In “1984” Orwell said, "Ignorance is strength". Electing a man who claims climate change is a Chinese hoax makes the case. We needn't continue down the long list of ignorant statements.

Americans have been long conditioned to revere wealth, and view the wealthy as morally and intellectually superior to the general population.

Remember when "personal responsibility" was the value conservatives claimed as their own? 

That went out their "Overton window" when they embraced alternative facts.

Personal responsibility doesn't apply to our new con-servative authoritarian leader. "When you're a star, they let you get away with it". This boast of sexual assault is from the "law and order" candidate. We know just who "law and order" applies to, don't we?

==

The “Big Lie” wins again.

The voices from the far Right insist newspapers and broadcast media (AKA “Liberal media”) are "cheering sections for the most progressive elements of government".

They will ignore certain facts though. Today's corporate news media are owned by a small number of corporations. A very large share of it is owned by Murdoch’s Right Wing News Corp; Fox News, Wall Street Journal, etc.

"Liberal media" is the far Right's highly misleading propaganda term for corporate media. Unlike in the past, the news divisions are used for profit generation. Much has changed from the public service requirement of airwaves and print news.

Corporate media serve their bottom line, not liberal ideology. Their bias is always in favor of their corporate owners and advertisers.

Always.

They support the status quo because the status quo supports them.

Always.

Corporate media run stories the Right doesn’t like, so it is accused of bias against them. They ignore the fact the same corporate media virtually parroted Bush and Cheney’s Saddam/al-Qaeda ties, “nukular” aluminum tubes, and “biological labs” lies as news.

The radical Right’s war on truth is now getting dangerous for the entire world.

The Pentagon knows climate change is real. Why do Republicans disagree with both the scientific consensus and Pentagon on what is real?

How can that be sane, let alone reasonable?

They are rewarded by Big Oil and the Kochs to reject reason and science, and to deny climate change. Then they project unto science their own obvious “political agenda”.

This corruption is a threat to the nation, humanity and the planet.

Their lack of intellectual honesty clearly disqualifies them to lead any country.

The truth offers no comfort. The lies wrap it up and put them at ease. No more thinking about what they don't want to know.

====

From:

“Secrets of conservatives’ decades-long war on truth

Deep on page 546 of his 1,839-page budget, Wisconsin’s Governor Scott Walker tucked in a crucial idea. He proposed to strip a principle from the mission statement of the University of Wisconsin, a school that attracts students from all over the nation and from 131 foreign countries. From the core philosophy that has driven the university since the turn of the last century Walker wanted to hack out the words: “Basic to every purpose of the system is the search for truth.” Rather than serving the people of the state by developing intellectual, cultural and humane sensitivities, expertise, and “a sense of purpose,” Walker prefers that the state university simply “meet the state’s workforce needs.” In the face of scathing criticism, the governor backtracked and, despite a trail of emails that led to his office, tried to claim the new language was a “drafting error.”

But Walker’s attempt to replace the search for truth with workforce training was no error. Since the earliest days of Movement Conservatism in the 1950s, its leaders have understood that the movement’s success depends on destroying Americans’ faith in the academic search for truth. For two generations, Movement Conservatives have subverted American politics, with increasing success, by explicitly rejecting the principle of open debate based in reasoned argument. They have refused to engage with facts and instead simply demonized anyone who disagrees with their ideology. This is an astonishing position. It is an attack on the Enlightenment principles that gave rise to Western civilization.


Make no mistake: the attack is deliberate.


... After an economic free-for-all of the 1920s that had pitched the nation into the Great Depression, Americans embraced the government regulation that reined in shady business dealings and protected workers. How could businessmen make inroads against such a popular program?


In 1951, a young William F. Buckley, Jr. articulated a strategy for opposing the consensus that supported New Deal policies. Buckley’s “God and Man at Yale: The Superstitions of ‘Academic Freedom’” was a sophomoric diatribe by the Catholic son of a wealthy oil magnate, published by the small right-wing Henry Regnery Press. In it, Buckley rejected the principles that had enabled social progress for centuries and laid out a mind-boggling premise: The Enlightenment, the intellectual basis of Western Civilization, was wrong.

Rational argument supported by facts did not lead to sound societal decisions, Buckley claimed; it led people astray...

...When Governor Walker replaced “the search for truth” with “meet the state’s workforce needs” in the charge to the University of Wisconsin, he did not make an error. He was articulating the principle that has driven Movement Conservatives since their earliest days: Facts and arguments can only lead Americans toward a government that regulates business and supports working Americans, and they must be squelched.



====

 And more recently we have a piece by conservative talk radio host Charles Sykes, admitting what went wrong.


He recalls Trump’s campaign surrogate Scottie Nell Hughes saying, There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts.” (Well, besides “alternative facts”.)
====


From “Why Nobody Cares the President Is Lying”:

Mr. Trump understands that attacking the media is the reddest of meat for his base, which has been conditioned to reject reporting from news sites outside of the conservative media ecosystem.

For years, as a conservative radio talk show host, I played a role in that conditioning by hammering the mainstream media for its bias and double standards. But the price turned out to be far higher than I imagined. The cumulative effect of the attacks was to delegitimize those outlets and essentially destroy much of the right’s immunity to false information. We thought we were creating a savvier, more skeptical audience. Instead, we opened the door for President Trump, who found an audience that could be easily misled. 

====


Amen.

145 comments:

Majormajor said...

DD

"Look at your lie and false accusation for comparison:

You agree with the Islamic Terrorist final solution for Israel."

Kind of like JG claiming because I never denied being a Fascist, I must be one.

What goes round DD comes around, how do you like it?

Now you're going to try weasel out of your lie, sorry dude, it doesn't work that way.
JG and I came to terms when he kied about me, why should I expect any less from you.
`
There is no reason to deal with a liar in a respectful way, no matter how you try to justify your lie by putting more words in my mouth, you lied when you said "that I think 'Israel's territory' was always theirs. If it's not a lie, show me where I said that or retract. Or you are an admitted liar.

T. Paine said...

Actually, if one goes back to Old Testament times, the Jews have a far greater historical and cultural claim on the land that comprises the current state of Israel and the city of Jerusalem than the Arabs and current day Palestinians ever did.

That said, I will spend more time addressing your latest leftist propaganda piece later, Mr. Dubya. (and yes, I know Trump and some on the right are equally as guilty of propaganda.) I just wish everyone would sit back and look at the facts... especially the leftist corporate media... and address situations with the dispassionate truth. I also wish I had a pet pegasus, and that is more likely to happen, frankly.

Dave Dubya said...

Chuck,
Now you've repeated your lie about me. AND you never clarified your view as different from my conclusion. Yet you drag it out like a thin-skinned Trumpist...

Can't you be honest for one little comment?

This topic is closed for this thread. For better reference, please continue where it started.

TP,
Thanks for stating what we can safely assume would be Chuck's unstated belief. He just got angry with me again for such a quibble.

I just wish everyone would sit back and look at the facts

So do I. So do I. When one side rejects facts, where does that leave us? Trumpistan.

As noted:

Scottie Nell Hughes said, “There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts.” (Well, besides Kellyanne Conway's “alternative facts”.)

Now you have a conservative radio host to accuse of "leftist propaganda" for agreeing with my account of the facts.

Does that mean he's part of the "Liberal media" now?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

More from the article by Charles J. Sykes:

"...that the real threat is not merely that a large number of Americans have become accustomed to rejecting factual information, or even that they have become habituated to believing hoaxes. The real danger is that, inundated with 'alternative facts,' many voters will simply shrug, asking, 'What is truth?' — and not wait for an answer.

In that world, the leader becomes the only reliable source of truth; a familiar phenomenon in an authoritarian state, but a radical departure from the norms of a democratic society. The battle over truth is now central to our politics.

This may explain one of the more revealing moments from after the election, when one of Mr. Trump’s campaign surrogates, Scottie Nell Hughes, was asked to defend the clearly false statement by Mr. Trump that millions of votes had been cast illegally. She answered by explaining that everybody now had their own way of interpreting whether a fact was true or not.

'There’s no such thing, unfortunately, anymore as facts,' she declared. Among 'a large part of the population' what Mr. Trump said was the truth.

'When he says that millions of people illegally voted,' she said, his supporters believe him — and 'people believe they have facts to back that up.'
"


Dave, it's very apparent that both of your rightist guests ignore facts, and instead base interpretation on long ago and outdated paradigms, then commingle it with current reality to arrive at an equally or even more outrageous blend that defies common sense and logic. One example, which I've pointed out many times and which I've never received a coherent or rational response, or in other words one which could hold credibility -- is the outlandish idea of the "leftist corporate media".

Several on the right cannot understand why leftists will not make the overture to find mutual agreement and work from that point to ultimately find common ground and solutions. The answer is because of the reasons you've noted in your excellent post, what Mr. Sykes mentioned in his referenced article, and which I've just touched upon above -- the right will not allow objective definitions and the resultant facts to be viewed and scrutinized in the light of day. Their universe is one of alternative realities, substitute definitions, and surrogate facts.

In essence, we do not even speak a common language.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

T. Paine: "Actually, if one goes back to Old Testament times, the Jews have a far greater historical and cultural claim on the land that comprises the current state of Israel and the city of Jerusalem than the Arabs and current day Palestinians ever did."

A "historical and cultural claim", huh?

Although you do not categorically state it, are you implying that the Jewish people should also have legal and moral grounds to claim all the land currently known as the State of Israel -- along with those territories taken and since occupied in the West Bank, the Gaza Strip, and the Golan Heights? Should, possibly, the Sinai Peninsula be turned back over from Egypt? Perhaps, even, land in the current state of Jordan should be annexed since it was at one time part of the Kingdom of Israel? There are many ways we can go with this.

You provided a possible legitimate historical context, Mr. Paine, but I'm not quite certain of your objective in doing so.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
Thanks for citing more of the conservative's article. I was hoping SOMEONE would actually read it.

IF there’s a "Leftist corporate media" then there’s a “Rightist universal healthcare/voting rights agenda”. How’s that for a patently absurd juxtaposition?

Orwellian doublethink has arrived.

The only way to make sense would be to reverse left and right. But that would take real sense over “con-sense”. Americans’ choice of con-sense over real sense is why the country is falling and failing.

“The right will not allow objective definitions and the resultant facts to be viewed and scrutinized in the light of day. Their universe is one of alternative realities, substitute definitions, and surrogate facts."

Exactly.

And this is the tragic essence of the cult-induced demise of democratic representation, freedom, justice, and the fading hope of an elusive American dream.

We’ll stop telling the truth about con-servatives when they stop telling lies about us.

T. Paine said...

JG, I was simply responding to our host's assertion and assumption that Majormajor supposedly thought that "Israel's territory was always theirs". Historically, much of what comprises the current nation of Israel was indeed theirs thousands of years ago. I realize some of the boundaries are not the same, and that some of those changes were necessitated by Israel having to fight for its very existence and thus capturing some of those additional lands.

The fact that Sadat and Begin did negotiate peace for Israel returning the captured Sinai peninsula and have not had hostilities towards each other since, albeit it is a frosty peace, only goes to further support my statement that if Israel's enemies would negotiate in good faith for peace and acknowledge Israel's right to even exist, then Israel would have offered to give back some of those captured lands in the past. Those enemies refused so Israel kept those lands as buffers from their enemies wishing their annihilation.

Mr. Dubya cites the pro-Palestinian talking point that Israel is an apartheid state. That is bovine excrement. Citizens of Israel, even those of Arab descent share all of the same rights and freedoms. The only law that does NOT apply to Arab-Israeli citizens is the one stating that all people must serve a term in the Israeli armed forces. Otherwise, they have all of the same freedoms as every other Jewish Israeli. It is interesting to note that the Arabs having the most freedoms and rights in the Middle East are all citizens of Israel.

I don't think Dave's citing of "alternative facts" though was done in malice. He simply believed the falsehoods cited by many in the unbiased non-leftist media. He bought the Left's agenda without determining the veracity of this particular non-fact.

T. Paine said...

As for the statements by this "right-wing" radio host, he is entitled to his opinions. To a certain extent, there is even some truth in his rhetoric. The Left does not hold a monopoly in spouting propaganda and alternative facts, for sure. I must say that I am not familiar with this particular guy though. There are some "Right wing" guys that I won't even listen to anymore because of their over-the-top propaganda and falsehoods. Michael Savage is one of those guys. Sean Hannity is another.

I try to get my information from various diverse sources, and often discern the real "truth" to be somewhere in the middle. (typically to the right of center. :) ) That is why I grit my teeth and watch MSNBC and CNN as well as Fox News. It is why I will read the NY Times as well as the Washington Times.

Contrary to assertions made, I want a vibrant and strong left to counter a vibrant and strong right. I would like it if both sides could argue facts though instead of propaganda. The assumption that one side is pure and the other is vile is part of that propaganda. It serves no purpose. If the left or the right were to be eradicated, then the remaining party would become lazy and corrupt. The Left's ascendancy in the last decade in particular has left them largely unchecked because of an impotent and corrupt right wing. It is why the left became corrupt too. That corruption side-railed a decent candidate in Bernie Sanders. (albeit a guy too far to the left for my tastes). The fact that it was Sander's own party that cheated him is demonstrative of the level of corruption there. The non-biased media, in the guise of Donna Brazille, then gave Hillary the debate questions in advance but you didn't here a peep about that from the non-leftist main-stream media.

Honesty is what is needed... from both major parties. Again, I am better off searching for my pet pegasus again.

Majormajor said...


There is no"Leftist corporate media"?

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2016/04/2016-campaign-opinion-journalists-press-corps-reporters-survey-213844


https://archive.mrc.org/biasbasics/biasbasics3.asp

The facts do not support your claim.

TP
Is it true that when the nation of Israel was created in 1948, that it's Muslim Arab neighbors encouraged the Muslim Arabs living in the new State to leave with the promise that after Israels neighbors defeated Israel they could return?

Is it true that the Muslim Arab neighbors turned their Muslim Arab brothers away from their country when they couldn't defeat Israel?

Would it be a stretch to say that the Palestine problem would not exist if the Arab Muslim nations had defeated Israel, or taken in the refugees they had created or if the Muslim Arabs had not left Israel?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "The only way to make sense would be to reverse left and right. But that would take real sense over 'con-sense'"

As a boy I used to buy comic boys after I was paid my weekly allowance. The Superman spoof of "Bizarro World" always stuck with me. Never did I imagine, at the time, that I would be living in one when I was older.

Which segues perfectly with the message of your post, along with the dishonest tactics employed by Mike Pence during the vice-presidential debates in October when his adversary, Tim Kaine, pointed out Biff's more outlandish statements about Mexicans, Russian President Vladimir Putin, or nuclear proliferation", along with other untruths or whoopers, and "Pence just shook his head derisively, as if Kaine had made it all up."

Yes, we live in a world turned upside down, inside out, and where lies are considered truths and "alternative facts" are whatever one chooses to support one's lies.

Bizarro World, indeed.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "The facts do not support your claim."

I looked at both sites you referenced and neither refute my claim that there is no such thing as a "leftist corporate media".

Just because journalist majors have historically had a democratic bent, doesn't mean this tendency is reflected in their writing. As a matter of fact, the one graph in the second article supports my claim because it shows how these tendencies have become greatly reduced as the decades have passed -- so much so that a large percentage (almost 20%) refused to acknowledge which candidate they supported as recently as 2004. They refused to answer the question? Why? Because they know what side their bread is buttered. I'll quote Upton Sinclair one more time, because it's my opinion you didn't read it the first time (or understand the underlying message). "It is difficult to get a man to understand something, when his salary depends upon his not understanding it!"

As usual, you do not read -- and nor do you comprehend. You're still stuck in a 1950s/1960s paradigm that refuses to acknowledge that today both major parties are lockstep with the corporate agenda. Until you make this connection, you're hopelessly out in left field. More appropriately, you're not even near the ballpark.

Dave Dubya said...

Chuck,

Welcome to the topic of this post. ;-)

Thanks for the Right wing source on "liberal media". Although it ignores facts like:

I recall President Eisenhower.

http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1957/8/1/are-our-nations-newspapers-biased-pin/

…according to Editor & Publisher's poll of the nation's newspapers, in terms of circulation 80 percent of the papers sold daily editorially backed Eisenhower, 11 percent supported Stevenson and 9 percent were uncommitted; of the weekly papers 75 percent favored Eisenhower, 20 percent Stevenson, with the others undecided.

I also recall when most American newspapers endorsed George W. Bush in 2000.

https://www.gwu.edu/~action/natendorse5.html

Even after the debacle in Iraq Editor&Publisher found that 213 daily newspapers endorsed Kerry and 205 daily newspapers endorsed Bush in 2004.

https://www.gwu.edu/~action/2004/cands/natendorse5.html


Most Journalists are more liberal because they are better informed than you. Many go to great lengths to report facts fairly. Their corporate bosses, investors, and business interests are not liberal by any stretch.

None of these facts will penetrate an ideologically closed mind.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
Kudos to you for recognizing the dishonesty and extremism in Hannity and Savage.

Mr. Dubya cites the pro-Palestinian talking point that Israel is an apartheid state. That is bovine excrement. Citizens of Israel, even those of Arab descent share all of the same rights and freedoms.

This would be a “pro-Zionist” talking point? And patently false.

From the Jewish Virtual Library:

http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-status-of-arabs-in-israel

While there is no institutional segregation, Jews and Arabs have chosen to live separately in all but a handful of cities. Israelis all recognize that Arab villages have historically received less funding than Jewish areas and this has affected the quality of Arab schools, infrastructure and social services. Arabs are also underrepresented in higher education and most industries.

Israeli Jews and Arabs have surprisingly little contact with each other. Most young people study at different elementary and secondary schools and may not come into contact with one another until college; by then, many preconceived opinions have been formed. This lack of interaction exacerbates tensions between the two communities.


De-facto Apartheid?

From:
“Not All Israeli Citizens Are Equal”

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html

I’m a Palestinian who was born in the Israeli town of Lod, and thus I am an Israeli citizen. My wife is not; she is a Palestinian from Nablus in the Israeli-occupied West Bank. Despite our towns being just 30 miles apart, we met almost 6,000 miles away in Massachusetts, where we attended neighboring colleges.

A series of walls, checkpoints, settlements and soldiers fill the 30-mile gap between our hometowns, making it more likely for us to have met on the other side of the planet than in our own backyard.

What exists today between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea is therefore essentially one state, under Israeli control, where Palestinians have varying degrees of limited rights: 1.5 million are second-class citizens, and four million more are not citizens at all. If this is not apartheid, then whatever it is, it’s certainly not democracy.

The failure of Israeli and American leaders to grapple with this nondemocratic reality is not helping. Even if a two-state solution were achieved, which seems fanciful at this point, a fundamental contradiction would remain: more than 35 laws in ostensibly democratic Israel discriminate against Palestinians who are Israeli citizens. For all the talk about shared values between Israel and the United States, democracy is sadly not one of them right now, and it will not be until Israel’s leaders are willing to recognize Palestinians as equals, not just in name, but in law.


http://www.fightracism.org/en/Article.asp?aid=241

35 pieces of discriminatory legislation submitted to the Knesset:

Discriminatory legislation proposed and enacted throughout the documented period aims to limit the rights and freedoms of many ethnic groups and the Arab minority in Israel. Most of the legislation targets the Palestinian Arab community, while some targets refugees and migrant workers. Although Israel has passed legislation to assist in the eradication of racism, unfortunately, these numbers indicate that law enforcement authorities are not acting sufficiently and effectively to combat racism in Israeli society.

Majormajor said...

JG

Why am I not surprised that you failed to see in the links I provided the % of reporters who listed them selves as democrat?

Media Matters: Soros is a financial backer of Media Matters for America, a progressive media watchdog group that hyperventilates over any conservative view that makes it into the mainstream media. Now its founder, David Brock, has openly declared war on Fox News, telling Politico that the group was mounting “guerrilla warfare and sabotage” against the cable news channel, and would try to disrupt the commercial interests of owner Rupert Murdoch—an odd mission for a 501(c)(3) tax-exempt educational foundation that is barred from participating in partisan political activity.


When will the left ever agree and admit that the media is liberal (except Fox News)?

Majormajor said...

"Most Journalists are more liberal because they are better informed than you."

Back with the old liberal saw that only liberals are smart enough to run the world, to know the "real" history, to protect non liberals from themselves. Very authoritarian of them.

T. Paine said...

"Is it true that when the nation of Israel was created in 1948, that it's Muslim Arab neighbors encouraged the Muslim Arabs living in the new State to leave with the promise that after Israels neighbors defeated Israel they could return?

Is it true that the Muslim Arab neighbors turned their Muslim Arab brothers away from their country when they couldn't defeat Israel?

Would it be a stretch to say that the Palestine problem would not exist if the Arab Muslim nations had defeated Israel, or taken in the refugees they had created or if the Muslim Arabs had not left Israel?"

Majormajor, you are correct in each account, sir.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "Why am I not surprised that you failed to see in the links I provided the % of reporters who listed them selves as democrat?"

Why am I not surprised that you didn't read my answer?


T. Paine: "Majormajor, you are correct in each account, sir."

Mr. Paine, please source your references. If, let's say, there's validity to your claim, it would be like treating the symptoms of a deadly disease and ignoring the cause. I truly and honestly do not see what possible objective your seemingly "con-sense" has to the broader and much more important point here -- that is, the partition plan benefited a contrived State of Israel to the total detriment of a majority of Palestinian Arabs.

"The partition plan put forth by UNSCOP sought to create within Palestine a Jewish state contrary to the express will of the majority of its inhabitants. Despite constituting only a third of the population and owning less than 7 percent of the land, it sought to grant to the Jews more than half of Palestine for purpose of creating that Jewish state. It would, in other words, take land from the Arabs and give it to the Jews. The inherent injustice of the partition plan stands in stark contrast to alternative plan proposed by the Arabs, of an independent state of Palestine in which the rights of the Jewish minority would be recognized and respected, and which would afford the Jewish population representation in a democratic government. The partition plan was blatantly prejudicial to the rights of the majority Arab population, and was premised on the rejection of their right to self-determination. This is all the more uncontroversial inasmuch as the UNSCOP report itself explicitly acknowledged that the proposal to create a Jewish state in Palestine was contrary to the principle of self-determination. The plan was also premised upon the erroneous assumption that the Arabs would simply acquiesce to having their land taken from them and voluntarily surrender their majority rights, including their right to self-determination."

I stand by my earlier statement that before there can be any peace within the Middle East, those stolen and occupied territories would have to be relinquished by Israel as a starting point for additional negotiations. I see no other just or fair way.

T. Paine said...

JG, although you and I have our differences, it is obvious that you are a very smart guy. That said, do you really think that an independent state of Palestine would recognize and protect the rights of a minority Jewish population? Surely you are not so naive as to think that a Palestinian people that doesn't even recognize these peoples' right to exist will be willing to grant and protect them rights within the confines of the hypothetical "Palestine" borders?

I understand your point as to the creation of "Israel" via the UN as not being patently fair. I even have sympathy for that argument. Regardless, we cannot change what has already been done. That said, those Israeli-Arabs that did not abandon their homes so that the attacking Arab armies could wipe out the nascent Israel are now citizens of Israel today. The "refugees" that left demand the right of return (even though they now vastly outnumber Israeli citizens) so that they could electorally destroy the state if ever allowed to return. The surrounding Arab nations refuse to allow these people to immigrate to their countries. They would rather have the issue to use against Israel instead of alleviating the displacement and suffering of their fellow Arabs.

I think the idea of a two-state solution is possible only on paper because the Palestinians refuse to negotiate in good faith to solve the problem. Ehud Barak, when he was Israeli PM, agreed to about 95% of the concessions that the Palestinians requested, and STILL they refused to come to peace terms. When asked why he would not accept such radically favorable terms by the Israelis, the nobel-prize-winning terrorist Yasser Arafat said that because if he had accepted the terms leading to peace, he would have ended up "having tea with Mussolini". In other words, his own people would have killed him for compromising in peace with the Jews.

That is the intractable hate with which we are dealing in the region. I fear that nothing short of an all out war where the victor dictates the unconditional terms of surrender to the loser will ever create a true peace in that area. Like Golda Meir said, "There will be no peace until they love their children more than they hate us." Any "government" that pays bounties to the families of Palestinian terrorist "martyrs" evidently does not promote that kind of love of its children.

Majormajor said...

DD

"Many go to great lengths to report facts fairly. Their corporate bosses, investors, and business interests are not liberal by any stretch."

Dave prove that liberal reporters are being forced to report from a conservative point of view. In fact, I'd like you to list the conservative reporters and who they work for.

JG,
It must be tough being perfect ALL the time..

Majormajor said...

“And the fact that he (President Trump) is wrapping his arms around Putin while Putin is continuing to advance into Korea.”

Congresswomen Maxine Waters
2/6/2017

Liberals and democrats continue to unhinged right before our eyes.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

T. Paine: "JG, although you and I have our differences, it is obvious that you are a very smart guy."

Flattery will get you everywhere -- I bet you tell that to all of your adversaries. ;-) Obviously you're a follower of Lincoln's philosophy.


"That said, do you really think that an independent state of Palestine would recognize and protect the rights of a minority Jewish population?"

No more than the State of Israel has recognized and protected the rights of a majority population.


"Surely you are not so naive as to think that a Palestinian people that doesn't even recognize these peoples' right to exist will be willing to grant and protect them rights within the confines of the hypothetical "Palestine" borders?"

No more than the State of Israel has recognized the Palestinian people's right to exist, or has granted and protected their rights within their captured and occupied territories.


"I understand your point as to the creation of 'Israel' via the UN as not being patently fair."

Good. Let's change it.


"Regardless, we cannot change what has already been done."

Where there's a will, there's a way. If there isn't a wholesale change, there will never be peace in the Middle East. That's an absolute. If wholesale change isn't worth pursuing, neither is peace.


"The 'refugees' that left demand the right of return (even though they now vastly outnumber Israeli citizens) so that they could electorally destroy the state if ever allowed to return."

Yet you accept the gerrymandering and voter suppression of the GOP within this country, that has in effect turned this nation in nothing more than a kakistocracy. How honorable of you.


"[Neighboring Arab states] would rather have the issue to use against Israel instead of alleviating the displacement and suffering of their fellow Arabs."

Just as the GOP would rather maintain the current paradigm where corporations are favored over individuals; wealth for the few over the rights of the many, and allow the slashing and eliminating of basic safety nets for the poor and the elderly, rather than cut funding of an already bloated DoD budget that benefits only the Military-Industrial-Complex. Again, I salute you for your dedication.


"I think the idea of a two-state solution is possible only on paper because the Palestinians refuse to negotiate in good faith to solve the problem."

That's obviously your personal opinion. Nonetheless, until it comes to pass forget about peace in the Middle East.


"When asked why he would not accept such radically favorable terms by the Israelis, the nobel-prize-winning terrorist Yasser Arafat said that because if he had accepted the terms leading to peace, he would have ended up 'having tea with Mussolini'"

Arafat was a freedom fighter for the Palestinian people, and as you mentioned a Noble Peace Price honoree and one who supported the United Nations Security Council Resolution 242 which was rejected by both the Israelis and the United States. The stolen and occupied lands always were an obstacle to a peace accord.


"That is the intractable hate with which we are dealing in the region."

Not unlike the intractable hate and disregard the GOP has traditionally had for the American people, and which the Democratic Party has also embraced now that both are under the "big tent" of corporatism.


"I fear that nothing short of an all out war where the victor dictates the unconditional terms of surrender to the loser will ever create a true peace in that area."

You're undoubtedly correct. The United States government, with its insatiable appetite for war and war-profits, will make sure of that.

Majormajor said...

“We’ve seen nothing where we can where — where I can work with President Bush on…”

Nancy Pelosi
2/7/17
Still thinks Bush is President.

Unhinged.

TP,

When it comes to foreign policy, JG is naive.
His only solution to the war with Islamic Terrorism and to the Israel tensions is to blame the USA and it's "corporate puppet masters". Since he never offers a solution, he will never be held accountable for a solution that fails. Really quite a wise thing to. Never offer an answer or solution to a problem while sitting in the judgement chair condemning all.

An example from most recent post is this:
"Not unlike the intractable hate and disregard the GOP has traditionally had for the American people, and which the Democratic Party has also embraced now that both are under the "big tent" of corporatism." Trying to draw a parallel between the deep seated hate in the Middle East with the two major USA political party's supposed hatred for America's citizen shows again he has no solutions, just blame assignment.

I asked DD, JG and Jerry how they would end the war with Islamic Terrorism? The best they could do was falsely claim I had said I believed Israel's borders should be based on Biblical lines. This completely deflected from the fact that they have no answer.

Even when JG agrees with you "that nothing short of an all out war where the victor dictates the unconditional terms of surrender to the loser will ever create a true peace in that area.", he blames the USA for "its insatiable appetite for war and war-profits".
With no solution that he can be held accountable for the results.










T. Paine said...

JG, you use straw man arguments comparing Israel to the GOP. First, the comparison is a false one. Second, I am not a Republican as I left that party years ago when George W. Bush was president, so your damnation of them does not make me want to rise to their defense. The GOP is indeed part of the problem; however, not always in the evil way you portray them.

I do find it interesting that you think Israel "stole" their lands from the poor hapless Palestinians terrorists though. Unless you are talking about the very creation of modern day Israel via UN mandate, lands captured in war (especially a defensive war) are not stolen. Again, much of those captured lands were offered to be returned in exchange for an acknowledgement of Israel's right to exist and peace. Obviously this is why Israel still holds these lands today, sir.

As for the Nobel Peace Prize, there are three winners in particular that are so egregious as to make the award a complete joke lacking any credibility whatsoever. The first was given to Al Gore for producing a largely debunked global warming film. It did confirm though that Al Gore did not invent the internet, but he did invent anthropogenic global warming though. The second case is the awarding of the prize to President Obama for doing.... absolutely nothing. Indeed the timing of the award was such that the committee would have had to have made deliberations to award it to him before he ever occupied the oval office. Perhaps they just knew that his presidency would calm the earth and lower the seas. The third and most egregious awarding though went to the leader of the PLO that in his "freedom fighting" managed to kill civilians as a matter of course instead of simply targeting military targets. The mental gymnastics required by the Nobel committee to justify the award to Arafat is simply amazing.

I suppose Israel could indeed be forced to relinquish all of their land and their people could be scattered to the four winds, but that would eliminate the only stable democracy in the Middle East and the only economy that is innovative, vibrant, and creative while much of the rest of the Middle East seems to be lost in the worst aspects of a repressive, violent, authoritarian religion.

You know, it always struck me as ironic and amusing how many on the Left champion the oppressive patriarchal authoritarianism that is practiced in parts of the Middle East either implicitly or by benignly ignoring it, all the while they are screaming about the oppressiveness of Americans that won't let them have abortion on demand here. How's that for inconsistency and hypocrisy?

T. Paine said...

Majormajor, you are correct that many of our friends on the left never offer solutions but only more condemnation. Sadly it is a trap that is not always specific only to those on the left however. What is truly scary is that often times when the Left does occasionally offer a solution to a given problem, they fail to realize that their solution is typically worse than the problem they are trying to address. I give you Obamacare as a prime example.

Dave Dubya said...

Time for some "blame game" projection, boys?

I can't think of one thing you two have NOT blamed on liberals. Nothing but a string of accusations, blame, lies and "alternative facts" have been thrown at us.

Not to mention completely ignoring real suggestions.

Chuck asked, What is your "final solution" for the Israel problem?

So I kindly offered this:

"Final solutions are more of your ideology than mine. Israel, as with all rights-suppressing states, should make efforts toward equality, civil rights, and shared opportunity. And more moderate Arabs need to separate themselves politically from their violent minority. How's that for a start?"

Apparently I was addressing a wall. A wall of con-sense and alternative facts:

The first was given to Al Gore for producing a largely debunked global warming film. It did confirm though that Al Gore did not invent the internet, but he did invent anthropogenic global warming though.

Trump is about to suppress government climate studies altogether. What is there to hide? What happened to the "all the science isn't in yet" BS from your anti-science cult?

Now Dear Leader spews this vile crap:

“Radical Islamic terrorists are determined to strike our homeland as they did on 9/11, as they did from Boston to Orlando to San Bernardino, and all across Europe. You have seen what happened in Paris and Nice. All over Europe, it's happening. It's gotten to a point where it's not even being reported. And in many cases the very, very dishonest press doesn't want to report it. They have their reasons, and you understand that."

"Hear, hear! It’s high time someone reported the horrible carnage of the Bowling Green Massacre. Obviously the liberal media is supporting the terrorists now. Donald is the ONLY one who can keep us safe AND fix the world," swoons his brainwashed cult.

WTF is wrong with you people? You bitch and lie about liberals, and ignore the monster in the White House. See where THAT gets us.

You know, it always struck me as ironic and amusing how many on the Left champion the oppressive patriarchal authoritarianism that is practiced in parts of the Middle East either implicitly or by benignly ignoring it

Utter con-sense. Liberals oppose theocracy and dictatorships. "Champion" my ass!

And stop with the "Obamacare is a liberal solution" lie. The liberal solution is out of the question in corporate ruled America. Never even debated. Again, WTF is wrong with you people???

No wonder we can only call it brainwashing and willful ignorance.

See the OP again. I don't think some of you have even read it.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "See the OP again. I don't think some of you have even read it."

Sadly, Dave, I believe you are correct. I know Chuck hasn't -- for he cannot read or write -- but I'm terribly disappointed in Mr. Paine. I expected better of him.

T. Paine said...


"Blame Game" should probably be the title for your blog, my friend.

"I can't think of one thing you two have NOT blamed on liberals. Nothing but a string of accusations, blame, lies and 'alternative facts' have been thrown at us." ~ DD

Lol! And you accuse US of projection! You have ascribed all of the evils in the country to conservatives, Republicans, and Trump. Repeatedly. Ad nauseum. ...to the point that we conservatives who support conservative policies are a part of the "authoritarian state" and its rise by your account, sir.

"Final solutions are more of your ideology than mine. Israel, as with all rights-suppressing states, should make efforts toward equality, civil rights, and shared opportunity. And more moderate Arabs need to separate themselves politically from their violent minority. How's that for a start?" ~ DD

That is hardly a list of solutions and more like a bunch of platitudes, Mr. Dubya. "The Israelis are mean! They need to be nice to the poor terrorist Palestinians that target their civilians with bombs and knife attacks!"

As far as radical Islamic terrorism, Trump is generally correct about it. At least he is able to say and identify the enemy by name, unlike the previous administration who only served to embolden and bolster Iran and our enemies. Look at Iran's current missile launches in defiance of the very nuclear agreement that they signed. It doesn't take a brainiac to have seen that coming miles down the road that they would have brazenly violated the agreement. Okay, this is the part where you and the left now make excuses for them and why they aren't in violation. :)

As for Bowling Green, there were two Iraqi nationals (who would have been stopped by the current immigration ban) that were supporting terrorists and materially helping to target American troops. No, there was not a "massacre" there, and KellyAnne should have been more precise with her words, but there were indeed terrorists arrested there. But let's focus on the letter of the law instead of the spirit of it, like all good Pharisees do. WTF is wrong with you people?

Trump is a fool and dangerous but so are the people that oppose him to the point of ignoring the things of importance he says that are true. I generally try to live by the edict of not dismissing a good idea simply because I may not like the source. I wish more people on both the left and right would follow suit.

"Trump is about to suppress government climate studies altogether. What is there to hide? What happened to the 'all the science isn't in yet' BS from your anti-science cult?" ~DD

Dave, I agree with you that this is a foolish thing to do. That said, the National Parks and other departments that are defying Trump's orders are setting a very dangerous precedent in ignoring higher federal authorities. This will only cause a further breakdown in government and create anarchy. Judging by many of the protesters, this is precisely what they want though.

And the Left screams bloody murder that the Right might want to make any restrictions whatsoever on abortion under the guise of calling it women's rights. But they ignore their sisters in the Middle East that cannot even leave the house by themselves without the accompaniment of a male relative, let alone drive or vote. THOSE are women's rights issues. Not the "right" of killing your own un-born daughter.

And how is Obamacare not a liberal solution? It combines all aspects of liberalism. It encompasses crony-capitalism and the expansion of big government. And I could care less if versions of this monstrosity were originally proposed by Mitt Romney or the Heritage Foundation. It is NOT a conservative free-market solution to the problem that Obamacare has made far worse.

Ignorance and brainwashing indeed!

T. Paine said...

Oh, and I did read your OP. I admittedly got sidetracked by addressing erroneous comments on Israel when I started off on this thread though.

For the record, I always read the posts first.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
Thank you for reading the post.

You have ascribed all of the evils in the country to conservatives, Republicans, and Trump. Repeatedly.

Whenever I did, I supported it with documented evidence.

I never fabricated BS like:

The first was given to Al Gore for producing a largely debunked global warming film. It did confirm though that Al Gore did not invent the internet, but he did invent anthropogenic global warming though.

And:

You know, it always struck me as ironic and amusing how many on the Left champion the oppressive patriarchal authoritarianism that is practiced in parts of the Middle East either implicitly or by benignly ignoring it

I know about the Iraqis. They were caught, weren’t they? And the vetting was improved afterwards, like a sane administration would do.

What you call a “bunch of platitudes” was a damn sight more than offered by you or Chuck.

Instead you insult me with more BS.

"The Israelis are mean! They need to be nice to the poor terrorist Palestinians that target their civilians with bombs and knife attacks!"

At least he (Dear Leader) is able to say and identify the enemy by name.

You mean the “liberal media”?

Last I checked Obama called our enemies ISIL or ISIS and al-Qaeda. NOT all Muslims, or a free press, or our judiciary, like Dear Leader suggests. THAT’s how you tear a country apart.

I know, I know. Your propagandists wanted Obama to say “Islamic terrorists” or such. Fine. Turnabout is fair play. Christian terrorists murdered doctors and blew up the Oklahoma City federal building. Christian terrorist George Bush lied us to war, locked up without charges, and tortured human beings. And his war spawned ISIS. Terror begets terror.

Fair enough?

Look at Iran's current missile launches in defiance of the very nuclear agreement that they signed.

Show us the wording (It’s not there) that was violated in the agreement...or please cut the Trumpist war mongering crap.

When Trump starts a war with Iran, you will probably buy into it completely. No matter how many lies they spew. All Iran has to do to provoke war, is “disrespect” our emotionally unstable Dear Leader.

Now for the part you and the Trumpists don’t get. When ISIS says the US is at war with Islam, and the US proceeds to ban Muslim refugees, it plays right into their recruitment propaganda.

John McCain and many others with military backgrounds understand this. It is not a liberal fantasy.

things of importance he (Trump) says that are true.

Got an example? Any at all? Want to compare his statements with reality? I don’t recall you noting any lie from Trump. Can it be that difficult?

Bravo for supporting, while denying, climate science research.

And how is Obamacare not a liberal solution?

Are you serious? Even considering the origins? You really have not been paying attention. It seems because you hate it, it MUST be a liberal idea.

I'll let you ponder that before I tell you the reality.

Majormajor said...


Federal scientist cooked climate change books ahead of Obama presentation, whistle blower charges

www.foxnews.com/science/2017/02/07/federal-scientist-cooked-climate-change-books-ahead-obama-presentation-whistle-blower-charges.html

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, I'd like to take a moment to thank your loyal reader, Chuck, who has unquestionably, and unequivocally, exemplified and verified the title and contention of your excellent post. His contributions have been greatly valued.

;-)

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
We are indebted to our friends for their additional confirmations of the thesis.

So far in this thread:

You agree with the Islamic Terrorist final solution for Israel

I just wish everyone would sit back and look at the facts... especially the leftist corporate media.

Trump and some on the right are equally as guilty of propaganda.

Citizens of Israel, even those of Arab descent share all of the same rights and freedoms.

There is no "Leftist corporate media"? The facts do not support your claim.

Back with the old liberal saw that only liberals are smart enough to run the world

Al Gore for producing a largely debunked global warming film. It did confirm though that Al Gore did not invent the internet, but he did invent anthropogenic global warming though.

many on the Left champion the oppressive patriarchal authoritarianism that is practiced in parts of the Middle East

our friends on the left never offer solutions but only more condemnation. their solution is typically worse than the problem they are trying to address. I give you Obamacare as a prime example.

You have ascribed all of the evils in the country to conservatives, Republicans, and Trump.

As far as radical Islamic terrorism, Trump is generally correct about it. At least he is able to say and identify the enemy by name, unlike the previous administration who only served to embolden and bolster Iran and our enemies. Look at Iran's current missile launches in defiance of the very nuclear agreement that they signed.

And how is Obamacare not a liberal solution? It combines all aspects of liberalism. It encompasses crony-capitalism and the expansion of big government. And I could care less if versions of this monstrosity were originally proposed by Mitt Romney or the Heritage Foundation.

Federal scientist cooked climate change books


RE the last lie:

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/house-science-chairman-sees-liberal-cover-up-on-warming-pause/

"House Science Chairman Sees Liberal Cover-Up on Warming Pause"

Lamar Smith says he has new evidence that a government study discrediting a purported pause in global warming was politically motivated, but independent research supports the findings


http://www.popsci.com/regardless-house-science-committee-claims-noaa-scientists-probably-didnt-manipulate-climate-records

DO NOT BUY THE HOUSE SCIENCE COMMITTEE’S CLAIM THAT SCIENTISTS FAKED DATA UNTIL YOU READ THIS

NO CREDIBLE EVIDENCE SUPPORTS THAT NOAA FABRICATED DATA; EVIDENCE STILL POINTS TO CLIMATE CHANGE

Dave Dubya said...

GOP War on Truth in the Senate:

“I am surprised that the words of Coretta Scott King are not suitable for debate in the United States Senate,” Warren replied after being censored by Mitch McConnell.

McConnell invoked the little-used Rule XIX, which says that “No Senator in debate shall, directly or indirectly, by any form of words impute to another Senator or to other Senators any conduct or motive unworthy or unbecoming a Senator.” King’s letter argues that, during Sessions’ time as a prosecutor in Alabama, “Mr. Sessions has used the awesome power of his office to chill the free exercise of the vote by black citizens.”

Sessions was rejected for a judgeship by Senate Republicans in the '80s for his "conduct or motive unworthy or unbecoming a Senator", but Warren crossed the line by speaking the truth.

Majormajor said...

Federal scientist cooked climate
change books ahead of Obama
presentation, whistle blower charges.


http://www.foxnews.com/science/2017/02/07/federal-scientist-cooked-climate-change-books-ahead-obama-presentation-whistle-blower-charges.html

Read the report

Dave Dubya said...

Read it, Chuck.

Yes, Lamar Smith is supported by fossil fuel corporations.

Did you read this?

"A study published last month in Science Advances, by Zeke Hausfather of University of California Berkeley and five others, claims to confirm Karl’s findings." (Contrary to "whistle blower" allegations)


I bet you didn't read the other supporting links I gave either.

The Right's War on Truth continues.

Dave Dubya said...

And yet another source debunking the GOP war on truth:

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/02/article-names-whistleblower-who-told-congress-that-noaa-manipulated-data/

Article names “whistleblower” who told Congress that NOAA manipulated data
Allegations in a Daily Mail article seem more office politics than science.


Rather than engage with the science behind this paper, Rep. Lamar Smith has, without any evidence, accused the NOAA scientists of doctoring their results to exaggerate recent warming.

Two former NOAA staffers confirmed to Ars that Tom Karl essentially demoted John Bates in 2012, when Karl was Director of NOAA’s National Centers for Environmental Information. Bates had held the title of Supervisory Meteorologist and Chief of the Remote Sensing Applications Division, but Karl removed him from that position partly due to a failure to maintain professionalism with colleagues, assigning him to a position in which he would no longer supervise other staff. It was apparently no secret that the demotion did not sit well with Bates.


Bates has a personal grudge. No wonder Republicans like him and take him at his word while disregarding all other evidence.

Very Trumpist of them.


T. Paine said...

Majormajor, you could make an encyclopedic and exhaustive list of all of the counter evidence in the world disproving anthropogenic global warming and it would not ever be seen as credible by many of our leftist friends. It simply runs counter to their worldview, and therefore is only worthy of derision and discounting.

"Science" is often times seen as a religion to our friends on the left... at least when it supports their humanistic world view by cherry picking favorable data and ignoring contrary data. (Of course certain indisputable facts of science, such as when human life actually begins at the point of conception, are summarily dismissed for political reasons with cute euphemistic names like "choice".)

True scientists will go where the truth of the data leads them. Many of our friends on the left refuse to give up their political agenda of man-made global warming or climate change or whatever name they are forced to come up with this month despite some damning contrary facts presented in the data. It is far more important to hold on to this belief and to heap scorn on any that disagree with this "settled science" as this is a matter of faith that transcends science to many of these otherwise good folks.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
That's quite an elegant, albeit utterly consensicle, defense of "counter evidence", based ENTIRELY on one man's embittered accusation.

Accusations. That's your bread and butter, isn't is?

Accusations that ignore reality and CONFORM to your false beliefs. They never end.

You babble about "True scientists", yet fail to show us ONE dissenting scientist not on the payroll of fossil fuel corporations.

The side with the "political agenda" is obvious.

Record heat, rising ocean temperatures, bleaching coral, receding glaciers, dwindling Arctic ice, massive ice shelf calving in Antarctica, higher levels of CO2 and other greenhouse gasses, etc. are realities YOUR political agenda must ignore or oppose.

We know what your false ideological beliefs and political indoctrination look like.

This is what wisdom looks like.

From Wendell Berry:

The atmosphere, the earth, the water and the water cycle - those things are good gifts. The ecosystems, the ecosphere, those are good gifts. We have to regard them as gifts because we couldn't make them. We have to regard them as good gifts because we couldn't live without them.

Whether we or our politicians know it or not, Nature is party to all our deals and decisions, and she has more votes, a longer memory, and a sterner sense of justice than we do.

T. Paine said...

Really? There are plenty of scientists that disagree with AGW that are not on the payroll of fossil fuels, Dave. Even the former founding head of Green Peace resigned because of the political agenda unsupported by science of these climate alarmists.

In one hundred years, the earth's temperature has risen .8 degrees supposedly, and that is assuming that we can even accurately measure such things over the course of entire world going back a century. Further, such things as record ice levels in Antarctica tend to prove the lie of global warming. I guess that is why they re-marketed it as "climate change" since that will capture any aberrations to their political narrative.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCy_UOjEir0&t=904s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C35pasCr6KI

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Lye5liWuZw

There are many scientists that dispute AGW, including Dr. Fred Singer who invented the satellite technologies that helped measure these things.

But you feel free to believe as you will and cast aspersions on those of us who are still agnostic on the subject. That is truly open-minded and liberal of you, my friend. :)

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
You are only proving me correct.

Dr. Fred Singer
Industry Ties: The Cato Institute, Competitive Enterprise Institute, Heritage Foundation, Heartland Institute and others. According to SourceWatch, Singer has also done consulting work for major oil companies including Texaco, Arco, Shell, Sun, Unocal, the Electric Power Institute, Florida Power and the American Gas Association. Has previously worked for the tobacco industry to debunk the "junk science" linking their products to cancer.
The Heartland Institute

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Heartland_Institute

The Heartland Institute, according to the Institute's web site, is a nonprofit "think tank" that questions the reality and import of climate change, second-hand smoke health hazards, and a host of other issues that might seem to require government regulation. A July 2011 Nature editorial points out the group's lack of credibility:
"Despite criticizing climate scientists for being overconfident about their data, models and theories, the Heartland Institute proclaims a conspicuous confidence in single studies and grand interpretations....makes many bold assertions that are often questionable or misleading.... Many climate sceptics seem to review scientific data and studies not as scientists but as attorneys, magnifying doubts and treating incomplete explanations as falsehoods rather than signs of progress towards the truth. ... The Heartland Institute and its ilk are not trying to build a theory of anything. They have set the bar much lower, and are happy muddying the waters."
The January 2012 Confidential Memo: 2012 Heartland Climate Strategy states:
“We will also pursue additional support from the Charles G. Koch Foundation. They returned as a Heartland donor in 2011 with a contribution of $200,000. We expect to push up their level of support in 2012 and gain access to their network of philanthropists, if our focus continues to align with their interests. Other contributions will be pursued for this work, especially from corporations whose interests are threatened by climate policies.”
Dr. Patrick Moore, formerly of Greenpeace, is not a climate scientist. Big surprise. He was an environmentalist who sold out.

From Greepeace:

While it is true that Patrick Moore was a member of Greenpeace in the 1970s, in 1986 he abruptly turned his back on the very issues he once passionately defended. He claims he "saw the light" but what Moore really saw was an opportunity for financial gain. Since then he has gone from defender of the planet to a paid representative of corporate polluters.

So who’s paying Moore for his Vegas speech? The Heartland Institute.

Let’s follow the money.

The Heartland Institute is connected to the Koch brothers and their network of right-wing donors. In the past, the Institute has accepted $40,000 from the Claude R. Lambe Foundation and $62,578 from the Charles G. Koch Foundation. Both organizations are members of the Koch Family Foundations. Heartland received more than $675,000 from ExxonMobil from 1997-2006.

Ivar Giaever:

Yet another Heartland oil soaked denier.

https://www.heartland.org/about-us/who-we-are/ivar-giaever

Robert Carter:

Yet another Heartland oil soaked denier.

https://www.heartland.org/about-us/who-we-are/robert-m-carter-1942-2016

William Happer:

Yet another Heartland oil soaked denier.

https://www.heartland.org/publications-resources/publications/william-happer-climate-data-or-dogma-testimony


==

Nice try.

Play again?

Majormajor said...

DD

Put your money where your mouth is,
let us know when you go off grid, sell your auto and replace with a bike, raise all your food without herbicides, or fertilizer and wear nothing but cotton or wool clothing.

Until then, you are a fake environmental warrior.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
I'm wondering when, maybe, just maybe, you can comprehend the fact I know what I'm talking about on this issue?

Climate science denial is a veritable industry on the corporate Right. Yes, it is absolutely THEIR political agenda. And it is supremely dangerous consense. (All consense is dangerous)

How long will you search before you find a climate science denier NOT getting money from Heartland/fossil fuel corporations?

Let me know how your confirmation bias works out. Or at least acknowledge my point is grounded in reality.

Here's the thing. I wish you were right. I would be only too happy to be wrong about all this. But I am not. I cannot deny facts, data, reason, and evidence seen by my own eyes.

How do you do it?




Dave Dubya said...

Chuck,
And you are fake patriot, until you are killed fighting ISIS.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya to T. Paine: "Here's the thing. I wish you were right. I would be only too happy to be wrong about all this. But I am not. I cannot deny facts, data, reason, and evidence seen by my own eyes."

I also wish Mr. Paine were right. Unfortunately, based upon everything I've read, he's not. It's the most pressing and dangerous issue of our time. The consequences of rising worldwide temperatures put all life at risk. It goes way beyond flooded coastal lands. It's a total game-changer.


"How do you do it?"

I wonder myself.


Dave Dubya to Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "And you are fake patriot, until you are killed fighting ISIS."

One can only wish... ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, it's my impression that conservatives and Republicans alike -- well, at least those not in positions of power and influence -- haven't grasped the concept of "follow the money".

It always leads to a telling story -- and it's never the story they think it'll be.

Majormajor said...

Got to wonder when DD is going to do something to make his carbon footprint smaller.
Do as you say, not as you do, right DD?

Got to wonder why JG and DD are so filled with hate. Oh, I forgot, they are good at telling others how they should live their live (authoritarian) but not so good at walking the own walk.

As DD has brought up the topic of fighting ISIS, still wondering when he will share with us his plan for defeat ISIS.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
My theory is "Follow the money" elicits different reactions in libs and cons. Libs want to know where the corruption is. Cons just want more of that money for themselves.

Chuck,
I thought Dear Leader had the plan, knowing "more about ISIS than the generals".

My plan was NOT to invade Iraq to give more terrorists a cause and ISIS. How'd that work out? Do you agree with Dear Leader it was a mistake by our "killers"? (No answer expected)

Got to wonder when DD is going to do something to make his carbon footprint smaller.

Got to wonder when Chuck will think for himself and not make false assumptions.

Majormajor said...

Start with following the money and the passage of Obamacare.

Share with us DD ECO Warrior, what you have done.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "Got to wonder when Chuck will think for himself and not make false assumptions."

Dave, as usual Chuck's grasping at straws. He always does when he can't carry a debate beyond the limited scope of his poor education. He tries to run with the big dogs, but he only gets pissed on. But that's what he likes, so he always comes back for more.

He should have been in Moscow with Trump! ;-)

Majormajor said...

Sure JG sure, LOL
What have you done in your personal life to reduce your dependency on oil and to save the planet?

What is your plan to end the war with Islamic Terrorism, eliminate Israel?

Grasping at straws, not really, just waiting for you liberals to lead us poorly public educated to socialist paradise by your actions.

Put up or shut up JG.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, I think Chuck has decided not to pray for me anymore. ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "My theory is 'Follow the money' elicits different reactions in libs and cons. Libs want to know where the corruption is. Cons just want more of that money for themselves."

You're absolutely right. Lefties seek to correct the wrong; Conservatives and Republicans seek to get their share of the "wrong".

Trump is gearing up right now to take us further and faster down that road...

Dave Dubya said...

"The radical Right MUST LIE."

Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) claimed Wednesday night that “the Democrats are the party of the Ku Klux Klan.”

They love this lie. Their hate and dishonesty reeks. Every Republican and con-servative racist uses this consense to project their racism to democrats. They do their best to deflect from the fact the Klan openly endorsed and celebrated the victory of their Dear Leader. The same asshole who lied for years about Obama not being a citizen.

Make no mistake. They are evil. And they have taken our government.

Dave Dubya said...

Here is the truth. Conservative whites were, and are, the Ku Klux Klan. Always have been, always will be.

Majormajor said...

Follow the money EXCEPT when it was spend to bribe Democrats to pass Obamacare.

LOL

Majormajor said...

Here is the truth.

In Pulaski, Tennessee, a group of Confederate veterans convenes to form a secret society that they christen the “Ku Klux Klan.” The KKK rapidly grew from a secret social fraternity to a paramilitary force bent on reversing the federal government’s progressive Reconstruction Era-activities in the South, especially policies that elevated the rights of the local African American population.

The KKK engaged in terrorist raids against African Americans and white Republicans at night, employing intimidation, destruction of property, assault, and murder to achieve its aims and influence upcoming elections. In a few Southern states, Republicans organized militia units to break up the Klan. In 1871, the Ku Klux Act passed Congress, authorizing President Ulysses S. Grant to use military force to suppress the KKK. The Ku Klux Act resulted in nine South Carolina counties being placed under martial law and thousands of arrests.
www.history.com/this-day-in-history/kkk-founded

None of the founders of the KKK were Republicans, they were Democrats.

Senator Cruz said “the Democrats are the party of the Ku Klux Klan.” History proves that statement to be a fact.

Quiz: Name the last US Senator to have been a KKK member?
Further list of Democrat KKK members.
Hugo Black (D)
Theodore G. Bilbo (D)
Bibb Graves (D)
Clifford Walker (D)
George Gordon (D)
John Brown Gordon (D)
John Clinton Porter (D)
David Duke (ran in both Democrat and Republican presidential primaries)
Benjamin F. Stapleton (D)

DD said "Conservative whites were, and are, the Ku Klux Klan." A false comparison as not all conservatives are white, and DD has yet to provide the names of conservatives who are members of the KKK. Further, that is not what Senator Cruz said.

This is DD playing the race card to deflection attention from the question about his actions to reduce his carbon foot print and thereby save the world.



Dave Dubya said...

JG,
I think Chuck has just indirectly admitted he is a racist.

I knew Chuck would have to defend his party of racists, CEOs, and Trumpists. Of course he had to ignore the present tense wording in the lie.

And he ends up describing the Republican Party of today.

“bent on reversing the federal government’s progressive... policies that elevated the rights of the local African American population.”

Conservative whites were, and are, the Ku Klux Klan. The Klan has always been conservative whites.

Chuck can whine that not all conservative whites are Klansmen, which I never said, but all Klansmen are indeed conservative whites.

And Ted Cruz is a racist liar. Just like Dear Leader. And Chuck indicates he is with them all the way. Chuck is too dim or too racist to understand “the Democrats are the party of the Ku Klux Klan,” IS EXACTLY "playing the race card".

Chuck,

Dear Leader himself has called Cruz “Lyin’ Ted”.

Trump was right about that. Or was he, Chuck?

Cat got your tongue?

Dave Dubya said...

The Trumpists are at war with Nordstrum stores. “My daughter Ivanka has been treated so unfairly by Nordstrom,” whines Dear Leader, projecting Ivanka’s failure in the free market unto the retailer.

“I’m going to give a free commercial here. Go buy it today, everybody.” Kellyanne Conway endorsing Ivanka’s unpopular swag.

The law says:

“An employee shall not use his public office for his own private gain, for the endorsement of any product, service or enterprise,”

But, as we all know by now, IOKIYAR, amirite?

T. Paine said...

I agree. Trump is an idiot. We should impeach him and remove him from office immediately. God bless President Pence and God bless the USA! :)

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
One has to wonder just what it would take for this Republican Party to impeach one of their own. Nixon era Republicans were socialists compared to today's authoritarians.

Yes, the nation depends on the Republican Party to do the right thing. But can they?

God bless John McCain. I can almost forgive him for dumping Palin onto our national scene.

Dave Dubya said...

Sessions confirmed!

David Duke, the former leader of the the KKK, hailed the news. “Mr Trump’s appointment of Bannon, Flynn and Sessions are the first steps in the project of taking America back,” he wrote on Twitter.

Chuck agrees, but like Duke, he's "not racist". Only Democrats are racists, amirite?

Majormajor said...

Absolutely TP, replace Trump with Pence!!

Still waiting for the wizards of smart, DD and JG to tell us how they are living their lives in a manner that will save the planet from, GASP, man caused Global Warming. How in their daily lives they are separating themselves from the product of the "Heartland/fossil fuel corporations"? After all, they like all liberals, are so good at telling others how they should live their lives, one has to wonder if they can lead by example? Or is it:

Do as I mandate, not as I do??

Notice how DD doesn't address the fact that the KKK were founded by the Democrat Party, he wants us to forget that truth. So he rolls out his card of last resort, the race card.

When you've got nothing left, call your opponents racists.

Meanwhile, I'm waiting for DD and JG to follow the money that gave us Obamacare.

Dave Dubya said...

the fact that the KKK were founded by the Democrat Party,

No it was not. Yet another lie and more con-sense. And the race card again.

All Klansmen are conservative whites. And Chuck agrees with David Duke's, “Mr Trump’s appointment of Bannon, Flynn and Sessions are the first steps in the project of taking America back".

But thanks to Chuck for playing, and showing his true colors. (White on white)



Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "And Chuck agrees with David Duke's, 'Mr Trump’s appointment of Bannon, Flynn and Sessions are the first steps in the project of taking America back'."

David Duke's last three words have an unintended double-meaning, I'm sure, but nonetheless scream the truth -- "taking America back". How far back is anybody's guess.

The underlying message, of course, was never "Make America Great Again". That was code, and Chuck knows this, for "Make America White Again".

I'll repeat what I commented earlier, and what I twice wrote on Tom's blog, this last presidential election was really a choice between nuclear war -- which still isn't out of the question -- and civil war. The nation has made its selection.

Majormajor said...

Sure DD, the founding members of the KKK were all Republicans who voted for Lincoln.

LOL

Jefferson's Guardian said...

The irony here, and it screams even louder than Duke's asinine Tweet, is that Jesus was undoubtedly a black man.

It's the irony of ironies. "Me thinks" Chuck better spend a lot of time on his knees tonight. ;-) He has some explaining to do...

Dave Dubya said...

Lie all you want, Chuck. It only supports my post. Thanks.

The KKK ARE white Republicans now. They even claim to be Christians, just like Chuck.

So is Lyin Ted Lyin'? Or is Dear Leader lyin'? How about all of your cult of liars?

JG,

Don't forget their war on truth.

Quite an image of historical Jesus.

He would be seen as a terrorist to most American cons. They certainly reject His message to love their fellow human beings.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

T. Paine: "I agree. Trump is an idiot. We should impeach him and remove him from office immediately. God bless President Pence and God bless the USA!"

Out of the fire and into the...brimstone.

Dave Dubya said...

Did I say they are a cult?

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2017/02/poll-trump-more-widely-trusted-than-news-media.html

Poll: Trump More Widely Trusted Than News Media

“Better to get your news directly from the president,” Republican congressman Lamar Smith said last month. “In fact, it might be the only way to get the unvarnished truth.”
You may call that sentiment Orwellian, but nine out of ten Republicans would call it common sense: A new poll from Emerson College finds 90 percent of Republicans believe that the Trump administration is “truthful” — while less than 10 percent say the same about the news media.


We are becoming North Korea. Thank you Dear Leader, and loyal party stooges like Chuck.




Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "They certainly reject His message to love their fellow human beings."

Amen.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "Thank you Dear Leader, and loyal party stooges like Chuck."

Moe, Larry, Curly...and now Chuck.

T. Paine said...

I think the Trump Administration has been untruthful about a lot of inconsequential and foolish things. They sadly have also lied about some larger things. I definitely don't trust anything of important matters that they say unless I can corroborate it elsewhere.

That said, the unbiased corporate Left-wing media has a comparable or an even worse track record for the truth lately, especially about insignificant matters... just like Trump. I trust NOTHING they say without corroborating data.

"Quite an image of historical Jesus. He would be seen as a terrorist to most American cons. They certainly reject His message to love their fellow human beings." ~ DD

It is this kind of hateful rhetoric that diminishes your credibility Dave. Do you really believe that MOST conservatives would see Christ as a terrorist? That defies all common sense. The most violent thing Christ ever did was over-turn the moneychangers' tables and drive them out of the temple area.

I don't know what conservatives you personally know and hang out with, Dave, but the vast majority that I personally know go out of their way to help others, particularly the "least of us", with their time and treasure. Perhaps you know of some conservative "caricature" that the unbiased corporate Left-wing media has created out of whole cloth. That fanciful "stereotype" only exists in very small numbers or in the minds of the terrified progressives, my friend.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
What I'm saying is a man looking like that image would be seen as a threat by cons today.

By "cons", I'm not talking about my conservative grandmother, (She was half native American, so brown people didn't wig her out.) or you this time, but the far Rightists like Chuck.

Distinguishing nuance can be confusing. That's my point of using "con-servatism" and "con-sense".

Example:
While giving your honest opinion and thoughts on issues or events reflect conservatism, parroting lies and falsehoods reflect con-servatism.

A distinction I need to draw more often.

That said, the unbiased corporate Left-wing media has a comparable or an even worse track record for the truth lately

Are you sure you'd like to compare, using research objective, verifiable references?

Thank you for at least admitting Trumpists lie.

This puts you more in the conservative camp, apart from Chuck's total immersion in the cult-like con-servative camp. We need conservatives like you more than Trumpist cons like Chuck. There is no reasoning with him.

Does this help at all?

I have both socialist and capitalist tendencies, that may also confuse you.

It's not such a black and white world, as ideologues wish to portray it.

I'm sorry to have to resort to labels, but we all fit one or another at times.



Majormajor said...

Weighing in on one of the most contentious issues in American politics — the danger posed to host countries by the 4.8 million people who have fled from Syria’s civil war — Syrian President Bashar Assad told Yahoo News that some of the refugees are “definitely” terrorists.

Michael Isikoff
Chief Investigative Correspondent
Yahoo NewsFebruary 9, 2017

Thank liberals, any American blood shed in the USA due to Islamic Terrorists is now on you hands.

Dave Dubya said...

Yes, Chuck, we know you blame liberals for everything, even Bush's disastrous trail of 9-11, ISIS, and Great Recession.

Who listen's to dictators? Oh, yeah. Dear Leader.

Assad is no fool. He's playing up terrorism to Putin's Puppet to get him to join Russia in bombing the rebels. And thereby creating more refugees. Win/win, right?



Jefferson's Guardian said...

The Syria’s civil war. Get used to it. One just like it is coming to your country soon -- courtesy of Biff and his Stooges.

Dave Dubya said...

Chuck is starting to whine about not being able to dump off-topic spam in the thread.

I gave him the Assad point in order to explain how Trump listens to, and admires, dictators like Putin and Assad.

Where's HIS blog, anyway?

Majormajor said...

DD,

"how Trump listens to, and admires, dictators like Putin and Assad."

Where's your evidence or will you remove this like my posts showing liberal hate filled violence?

This thread is about conservatives lies, my posts pointed out, and you have validated my point, that liberals lie about being in the mainstream and peace loving. Which is a lie.

You just didn't want that fact to be known.

BTW, what makes you, (and I use the next word in it's broadest meaning) think that Trump is going to follow our former Nobel Peace Prize President's unsuccessful war on Islamic Terrorism tactics?

And yes, I and millions of other Americans will blame liberals for any American blood shed in the USA due to Islamic Terrorists. It's yours baby, learn to live with the reality that Americans are now aware of the hate filled violent left.

Simple question for you DD, do you disavow the liberal violence at UC Berkeley and the preventing of free speech?

Dave Dubya said...

Yes, Chuck, we know you blame liberals for everything, even Bush's disastrous trail of 9-11, ISIS, and Great Recession.

This is getting repetitious.

Of course I disavow violence, whether it is property destruction by liberal students angered by their student fees paying for a bigot's hate speech, murder by Muslim terrorists, or assassination of doctors, mass murder in Black churches, and federal building bombings by Christian terrorists.

Now Dear Leader is removing non-Muslims from being investigated as terror threats.

How about we blame YOU for ISIS, (spawned by Bush's war of aggression) Dylan Roof, Tim McVeigh and the doctor killers? Fair enough?

Or you can choose basic human decency and reason over your hateful blaming and ignorance.

We know how that will go. Trumpist liars will always reject basic decency and reason, as frequently demonstrated by your example.

Thanks again.


Dave Dubya said...

As noted above, David Duke, the former leader of the KKK, hailed the “good news”. “Mr. Trump’s appointment of Bannon, Flynn and Sessions are the first steps in the project of taking America back.”

I thought this exchange of tweets is a microcosm of our little discussion.

Chris Evans takes his Captain America duties very seriously. He tweeted:

“If David Duke....DAVID!...DUKE!... thinks you're right, then you are unequivocally wrong. The confirmation of Jeff Sessions is beyond words.”

Duke responded with:

“Typical dumb actor - if everything I say is wrong, then when I say I oppose these Zionists wars, you must be for them, Captain America!?”

Does Duke’s reaction remind you of anyone?

Majormajor said...

"basic human decency"

You mean like this

"And you are fake patriot, until you are killed fighting ISIS. DD

"Dave Dubya to Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "And you are fake patriot, until you are killed fighting ISIS."

One can only wish... ;-)" JG

Another example of liberal "Do as I mandate, not as I do".

Dave Dubya said...

Poor Chuck is a thin-skinned sensitive sort. He dishes it out, but can he take it? LOL! No. Typical authoritarian bully personality.

Mr. "Decency" said:
Put your money where your mouth is,
let us know when you go off grid, sell your auto and replace with a bike, raise all your food without herbicides, or fertilizer and wear nothing but cotton or wool clothing.

Until then, you are a fake environmental warrior.


It was fine to call me a "fake", but he whines like a little brat when it's tossed back at him.

Such a tough guy. About as decent and honest as Dear Leader too.

Majormajor said...

Really DD, you set the premise that conservatives are hateful and violent, yet when I confront you with the evidence of the violent hate filled liberal left you remove the posts. I could do as JG does and say as you haven't condemned the violent left, your silence means you support their actions, but I won't.

Liberals are very good at telling others how they should live but not too good at doing it themselves. Liberals excel at holding Christians to the standards they claim makes them Christian, but don't like when they are told to put up or shut up. Hence my question to you, which you still haven't answered.

It is clear that liberals believe in "Do as I mandate, not as I do".

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "Does Duke’s reaction remind you of anyone?"

Certainly. I wonder, though, whether David Duke has multiple personalities also? LOL


Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "Liberals excel at holding Christians to the standards they claim makes them Christian..."

Chuck, don't you get it? We enjoy shitting you -- you're our favorite turd! ;-)

Pick up your toys and go home. Everyone's getting tired of your incessant chatter and "nothingness". You're incapable of holding an intelligent and honest discussion. Now, run along. We're tired of you.

Majormajor said...

Typical liberal reaction from JG.


Honest discussion? Great, start with what you are personally doing to save the planet from Man Caused Climate Change.



Dave Dubya said...

Look at the authoritarian trying to dictate what the discussion should be, as if he's entitled to treat this blog as his personal forum.

White privilege doesn't fly here.

T. Paine said...

Dave, how do you know that Majormajor is white? Did he ever confirm that or are you making assumptions?

I am not trying to be snarky, but honestly want to know?

Also, what is your definition or what constitutes "white privilege", if I may inquire?

Have a good weekend, folks!

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
He's white. Lucky guess? No person of color would say the things he says. Black conservatives are generally more eloquent and educated too. He's no Colin Powell.

Also, he agrees with David Duke: “Mr. Trump’s appointment of Bannon, Flynn and Sessions are the first steps in the project of taking America back.”

At any rate he seems to feel the entitlement of classic white privilege.

White privilege (or white skin privilege) is a term for societal privileges that benefit people identified as white in Western countries, beyond what is commonly experienced by non-white people under the same social, political, or economic circumstances.

He waltzes in and thinks he can control the dialogue. That's a sense of privilege, is it not?

Have a great weekend. I have some friends coming over tomorrow. (One is a Trump voter, but not an asshole true believer, just misinformed. Nice guy.)

Majormajor said...

TP

Another Dave Dubya lie about me

"Also, he agrees with David Duke: “Mr. Trump’s appointment of Bannon, Flynn and Sessions are the first steps in the project of taking America back."

I've not made a comment on that lie, because I am using the same tactic as Dave does, I determine that the comment is so crazy and unhinged that I will ignore it, that it does not warrant an answer from me, that it is just another example of Dave putting words in mouth and then demanding I comment on the lie.

I find it highly amusing how DD keeps tripping over his own tongue in his effort to run from telling us how he is saving the planet from MAN CAUSED CLIMATE CHANGE.

Do as I mandate, not as I do, isn't that right Dave.

Would you rather I Fox Trot in DD? ;)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "Typical liberal reaction from JG."

A "liberal reaction"? It's more a reaction relating to a desire to return to civility, respect and intellectual curiosity -- none of which you possess. When you're a part of the discussion none of these are an attainable goal, because frankly nobody really understands why you're always being personally accusatory and labeling when you don't agree with someone else or their opinion. I'm not even going to touch upon your purposeful dishonesty or your emotional tantrums, although they're all tied together, and nor will I mention your endless rants that are totally off-topic.

I suggest you go back and sit on Tom Degan's lap. I think I hear him calling for you. Listen? Do you hear him? Yeah, that's him! Now run a long...

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

What a rant!

Amen to all the progressive pooh spewed forth by the radical left wing nut who calls himself just an "old fashioned American"!

LOL when the Democrats lose more seats in the midterms thanks to the radical left wing nuts who have taken over the Democrat Party!

LOL at how Obama drove the Democrat Party over a cliff and has left it in worse shape than Hiroshima after the bomb!

What would George Orwell say to all the Marxists destroying property and preventing free speech at Berkeley?

Majormajor said...

Praying for you JG ;-)

Dave Dubya said...

In other unanswered prayers news, “We send our best wishes to the new president that his administration may truly be fruitful,” said Cardinal Pietro Parolin, The Vatican secretary of state. “And we also assure him of our prayers that the Lord would enlighten and sustain him in his service to his country naturally, but also in serving the well-being and peace of the world.”

"Enlightened" will never be a descriptor of Trump, or his cult.

Majormajor said...

Praying for you DD ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "'Enlightened' will never be a descriptor of Trump, or his cult."

Dave, you're unfortunately correct. As a matter of fact, the opposite is more probable and likely. Even a personal god would have difficulty reaching through to the likes of a narcissistic personality such as Donald Trump -- or undoubtedly, his troupe of white supremacist cultist followers with their xenophobic, Islamophobic, anti-feminist, and homophobic beliefs.

Even an interceding Cardinal's appeals to a personal god could never awaken these lesser creatures of society to see the errors of their ways; the sins and trespasses of their emboldened hatefulness.

The antonyms of "enlightened" are more descriptive of this president and his cult: ignorant, stupid, confounded, confused, in-the-dark, misled, perplexed, uneducated, uniformed and, of course, "unenlightened".

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, perhaps when Chuck attends his obligatory church service this morning he'll light a couple of candles for us and offer up interceding prayers through Mary, the Mother of God, who I'd think would have a lot more influence with her son than just a commoner such as himself.

I know I'd feel a whole lot more confident. ;-)

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
I doubt Chuck even goes to church. A couple years ago, after I noted Jesus said we are all children of God, he demanded I "prove" it. Imagine being a "Christian" who is oblivious to the first two words of the Lord's Prayer.

Jesus said you can't serve both mammon and God. He stated that he is loyal to capitalism.

He also admitted he would do wrong for the "right reason". This is the moral relativism they love to project unto liberals, as they lie, hate and vote for Trump. I shudder to think what else he would do for the "right reason".

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

"The antonyms of "enlightened" are more descriptive of this president and his cult: ignorant, stupid, confounded, confused, in-the-dark, misled, perplexed, uneducated, uniformed and, of course, "unenlightened". "


LOL from a guy who posts on his blog that WT7 was brought down by "controlled demolition." Only someone who lives in an alternate universe can make such an ignorant, stupid, confounded, confused, in-the-dark, misled, perplexed, uneducated, uniformed and, of course, "unenlightened" comment.

Majormajor said...

DD,
DD

Once again you doubt incorrectly.

It is the height of hypocrisy for you to claim the right are haters while deleting posts from me that show the violent hate filled actions of the left destroy private and pubic property, while denying those they disagree with the right to free speech. It is the liberal that has anti-American values.

nypost.com/2017/02/11/how-obama-is-scheming-to-sabotage-trumps-presidency/

BTW JG, for someone who claims to be so smart, you haven't a clue about my faith, your ignorance is showing :-)

Dave Dubya said...

WT7 was brought down by "controlled demolition."

Yes, Arch, come to think of it, that is exactly what it looked like. Never questioning authority is essential to being unenlightened. What would you call Trump's racist birtherism? How about Unenlightened. How about Trump's hero Alex Jones and HIS conspiracies? Dear Leader loves that. Do you agree with Dear Leader and Alex Jones?

When will you illuminate us with your enlightenment?

Chuck, The only one sabotaging Trump's presidency is Trump. How should Obama repay Trump for years of his racist birtherism?

Or is it only OKIYAR? How enlightened.

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

What about all the violent protests, riots, assaults, vandalism and arson after Obama got elected? The fascists on the right went crazy. And it hurt their reputation badly.

Oops, wait. That didn't happen at all. There weren't even any angry protesters. Never mind, looks like I got the truth about the Dems and Repubs backwards.

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

Progressives are just too stupid to realize that their rioting and anti-Americanism are exactly what got Trump elected. Just too stupid.

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

The irony of Democrats switching on a dime is just too damn funny! Now, executive orders are bad. Trying to keep the country safe is bad. Just three short months ago, Democrats were telling us we had to accept the election results, now Democrats do not have to do so, the media does not have to do so. The double standard is quite glaring. Liberalism is truly a mental disorder!

Dave Dubya said...

Arch is laugh a minute.

The irony of Democrats switching on a dime is just too damn funny! Now, executive orders are bad.

I recall Obama’s EO’s were called “tyranny” by Republicans. Now who’s changed? Ironic projection, amirite.

Trying to keep the country safe is bad.

No, feeding into ISIS recruitment propaganda is bad. Religious discrimination is bad. Liars in the White House are bad.

No one is whining about having to “accept the election results” more than Dear Leader. He can’t accept the fact more people legally voted for Hillary than for him. Truth is the enemy of Trumpists, and they prove it daily.

Denial of reality is mental illness.

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

"No one is whining about having to “accept the election results” more than Dear Leader. He can’t accept the fact more people legally voted for Hillary than for him. Truth is the enemy of Trumpists, and they prove it daily."



But Hillary was supposed to win! He grabbed her pussy, how can he be elected President? How beautiful it was watching all the progressive media people (full time Barry and Hillary ass kissers) go in shock as Trump started knocking off the swing states on Nov 8!

LOL sore loser. Still crying in his beer about Nov 8.

Winning the presidency requires winning the Electoral College. Get over it poor snowflake.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "...for someone who claims to be so smart, you haven't a clue about my faith, your ignorance is showing..."

Chuck, I've never made a claim to be "so smart" -- only a whole hell of a lot smarter than you. :-)

Make no mistake, I know your watered-down brand of Christianity well. You seem quite pleased flying coach. Maybe some day you'll get upgraded to first class. ;-)

Majormajor said...

DD

Explain how birthism is racism?

JG,
Prayed for you in church this morning.

Dave Dubya said...

Arch,
Hmm. Sore loser AND poor snowflake? Name calling suits Trunmpists and bullies.

At least I'm happy to see you have no disagreement with my statement.

"No one is whining about having to “accept the election results” more than Dear Leader. He can’t accept the fact more people legally voted for Hillary than for him. Truth is the enemy of Trumpists, and they prove it daily."

Thanks.

Dave Dubya said...

Explain how birthism is racism?

Yes. Racists wouldn't see it.

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

"Denial of reality is mental illness."

Like believing WT7 was brought down by "controlled demolition"?

Dave Dubya said...

We all saw WT7 fall in what appeared to be controlled demolition. That part was real.

And who the hell has seen all those "dancing Muslims" Dear Leader saw on 9-11?

Did you see them, too Arch?

Now who the hell has seen all those bused-in New Hampshire voters?? Did you see them, Arch?

Denial of reality is mental illness.

Maybe Major Chuck saw them.

Chime in if you share Trump's delusions and paranoid conspiracy theories. Better not disagree with Dear Leader.

Majormajor said...

"Explain how birthism is racism?

Yes. Racists wouldn't see it."

DD

Totally stupid answer!

Can't answer can you DD.

More it's that way cause "I'm a liberal and I said so, how dare you question any of my claims."

"He also admitted he would do wrong for the "right reason", really DD you lying again? If not show where I admitted that.


"Of course I disavow violence" DD, but I only point out violence that non liberals commit, I'm only afraid of that kind of violence, isn't that correct DD.


Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "We all saw WT7 fall in what appeared to be controlled demolition. That part was real."

"Archie" tends to bring up WTC7 any time I zing his primary personality, Chuck ("Majormajor"). You see, Chuck will not do this. For psychological reasons beyond my ability to analyze, Chuck thinks his Rabbi Jesus will not be able to "see" his hatefulness and bitterness if the dirty deeds are performed by "Archie", instead. Yeah, I know, it's really pathetic and bizarre.

Anyway, WTC7 fell right into its own footprint, and fell at free-fall most of the way -- meaning it was falling as if unobstructed. Only six floors of the 47-story tower had any sustainable fires, and even those fires burned at temperatures that were considered standard office fires. Typical combustible materials were limited to paper and paper-based products, furniture, etc. -- nothing able to burn hot enough that even remotely approached the melting point of steel. Not even close.

Gee, if only six floors had fires, and those six fires were burning at fuel-starved temperatures only -- and that's all it took to collapse the building into its own footprint within a few seconds -- I'd have to speculate that all fire codes for all steel-framed high-rise buildings in the nation should be evaluated and upgraded immediately. This means no currently standing steel-framed high-rise buildings are safe to enter -- much less occupy. They're all death-traps! Why has it taken over fifteen years to start these evaluations?!

But, of course, "Archie" knows this because, as he said, he "took a couple of physics classes in college". ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

In the spirit of staying on topic, hope you've had the chance to see John Oliver's latest segment titled Trump vs. Truth. John offers some very good advise on how to counter this administration's proclivity for lying and straying widely around the truth.

Priceless!

Majormajor said...

JG

I don't seem to recall the left writing articles about Obama's lies, wonder if comedian John Oliver missed or ignored them? Or maybe they believed the lies.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
Oliver is great. I'd like to see more split screen images of Kim Jong Un along side of Kim Jong Don, showing their outrageous lies together.

The fact "con-servatives", along with most Republicans, show no outrage, or even insight, to the horrors of a reality denying, Alex Jones spouting, Breitbart bleating president tells us THEY ARE THE PROBLEM!

Low information authoritarians are the bricks and mortar of fascism. The Republican Party is directly to blame for this Great American Tragedy. They need to go. I just wish Democrats could find the decency and guts to do the right thing.

How'd you like this one?

Chuck:"Explain how birthism is racism?

DD: Yes. Racists wouldn't see it."

Chuck: Totally stupid answer!

I'm now guessing racists obviously think it was a totally stupid answer?



Dave Dubya said...


Chuck can't seem to recall the left writing articles about Obama's lies.

Of course not. That would require curiosity and READING.

Chuck wonders if comedian John Oliver missed or ignored them (lies)?

Typical. He obviously didn't watch the program when Oliver said all presidents have lied, showing Obama did so as well.

Willful ignorance is a con-servative "value". They are a threat and disgrace to our country, as well as the greatest shame on America since slavery.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "Chuck wonders if comedian John Oliver missed or ignored them (lies)?"

and...

"Typical. [Chuck] obviously didn't watch the program when Oliver said all presidents have lied, showing Obama did so as well."

When Chuck wrote that he wondered whether John Oliver "missed or ignored" Obama's lies, it was very apparent to me, also, that he missed or ignored Mr. Oliver pointing this out in his latest show. As a matter of fact, Mr. Oliver quantified the lying of President Obama in order to offer a comparison.

Neither did he watch previous seasons of Mr. Oliver's show, obviously, otherwise Chuck would have known that Mr. Oliver has always truthfully and openly critiqued when speaking about any governmental or corporate wrongdoing or impropriety.

Majormajor said...

If Oliver wrote articles about Lies From Obama, why didn't you or JG talk about them then?

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
Since Oliver is "reality based" humor, that puts him out of the Trump cult's awareness.

If Oliver "wrote articles", then he would be a journalist.

These low information types just can't be educated.

T. Paine said...

I am amazed that so many good people on the left get their "news" from comedians like John Stewart or Colbert or Oliver.

The cry about "low information voters" rings hollow when bellowed by "mis-informed voters".

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
And not so amazing, is those good people on the left who get their "news" from comedians like John Stewart or Colbert or Oliver are much better informed than those who buy into the FOX/Limbaugh/Breitbart far Right propaganda network.

Now Dear Leader Kim Jong Don gets his news from Alex Jones. Does our misinformed, willfully ignorant, arrogant, narcissistic, delusional, reality impaired, so-called president upset you less than Colbert and Oliver?

Shall we compare the accuracy from those satire sources and your propagandists and wackos?

I'll bet you are unaware of how much those comedians stuck it to ridiculous words and behavior from Democrats. Such bipartisan critiques are unheard of from FOX (R), Breitbart (R), and Limbaugh (R).

Can't imagine why...



Majormajor said...

TP,

Did you get that "Oliver is "reality based" humor"? Reality based, now that's funny.

John William Oliver is an English comedian, writer, producer, political commentator, actor, media critic, and television host.

And that funny thing is he's not an American citizen, so that gives him liberal street cred.

LOL.

T. Paine said...

"...those good people on the left who get their 'news' from comedians like John Stewart or Colbert or Oliver are much better informed than those who buy into the FOX/Limbaugh/Breitbart far Right propaganda network."

Well, I would say that is an unprovable assertion. I imagine some are and some aren't. If the comedians vs. the Fox contingent are the only sources of news for each of the parties involved, I would dispute that statement.

That said, I am bothered by the narcissism and falsehoods that come out of Trump's mouth. I was when Obama was president too, but that was considered "racist" back then. Trump has done some foolish things, including some good environmental protections. He has also done some good things. The fact that he has some good things accomplished this early on already puts him above Obama at this point.

I don't watch any of those comedians, so I don't really know whom they skewer on the Left and it really doesn't matter to me. They are free to say what they will and people are free to watch them. More power to them. I could care less.

And the fact that you don't think Fox doesn't ever offer Leftist critiques tells me that you don't ever watch Fox and are simply using talking points again. Juan Williams, Mara Liason (of NPR), Geraldo Rivera, Alan Colmes, and many others all offer left-wing criticisms on pundit shows. That said, I hardly rely on only Fox for my news. That would be as foolish as only relying on MSNBC or a group of comedians for my news.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

T. Paine: "I am amazed that so many good people on the left get their 'news' from comedians like John Stewart or Colbert or Oliver."

It's hard to quantify how many do, but I'd venture to say that those who were getting their "news" solely from the likes of Stewart or Colbert at one time, or currently John Oliver or Samantha Bee -- or Lee Camp, for that matter -- are better educated and grounded in what's actually happening domestically and internationally than anybody relying exclusively upon the corporate mainstream media -- especially Fox News.

The truth, sprinkled with a liberal dose of humor, is certainly more informative and educational than omissions and/or "alternative facts" and no humor at all.

Majormajor said...

"truth, sprinkled with a liberal dose of humor"

Wanna bet liberals don't find Dennis Miller funny?

Dave Dubya said...


TP,
Common sense tells us FOX (R) Breitbart (R) etc. are loaded with Trumpist lies and misinformation.

"Unprovable assertion" aside, my point has evidence to support it.

==
Survey : NPR’s listeners best-informed, Fox viewers worst-informed

People who watch MSNBC and CNN exclusively can answer more questions about domestic events than people who watch no news at all. People who only watch Fox did much worse. NPR listeners answered more questions correctly than people in any other category.

Each respondent was asked four of eight questions, which are at the bottom of this post. "On average, people were able to answer correctly 1.8 of 4 questions about international news, and 1.6 of 5 questions about domestic affairs," the report says. Here's the breakdown by viewing habits.

The report explains:

The largest effect is that of Fox News: all else being equal, someone who watched only Fox News would be expected to answer just 1.04 domestic questions correctly for a figure which is significantly worse than if they had reported watching no media at all. On the other hand, if they listened only to NPR, they would be expected to answer 1.51 questions correctly; viewers of Sunday morning talk shows fare similarly well. And people watching only The Daily Show with Jon Stewart could answer about 1.42 questions correctly.
==

That said, I am bothered by the narcissism and falsehoods that come out of Trump's mouth. I was when Obama was president too, but that was considered "racist" back then.

This sounds like you are equating the number, and even degree, of falsehoods.

I kept my doctor, as did millions of others. Who the hell else saw thousands of dancing Muslims in Jersey on 9-11, 3 million illegals voting for Hillary, Obama the Kenyan Muslim, ad nauseam.?

Are you seriously suggesting Trump is as grounded in reality as Obama?

Please.

At this time in Obama's presidency...do you even remember the financial crisis and Great Bush Recession hitting us full in the face at the time?...Obama's priority was fixing the mess Bush left him.

Now Kim Jong Don is riding a rising market (He's always had things handed to him.) and a more stable economy. We'll see how long that lasts.

The president lies every day and has advocated torture, killing families, and pillaging Iraqi oil. ALL WAR CRIMES.

But, yeah, he's doing so much good. A real beacon to the world.







Dave Dubya said...

Wanna bet liberals don't find Dennis Miller funny?

Sure, "Liberalism is a mental disorder" is so hilarious. It never gets old...or so they think.

Still cracks up ol' Chuckles the Clown, amirite?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Chuck "Majormajor" Morre: "Wanna bet liberals don't find Dennis Miller funny?"

Chuck, I never alluded or inferred that "liberals don't find Dennis Miller funny", for only certain conservatives or Republicans would make such wide-sweeping generalizations. Once again, it's strictly the authoritarianism nature of conservative thought.

That said, I can tell you this liberal doesn't find Dennis Miller as humorous, or in-touch with the truth about events occurring in the nation and world today as the aforementioned comedians. He did, though, have a great run on SNL, but that was another era. He's now yesterday's news.

As usual, and which I've come to expect, you've responded in an adversarial manner and one which is totally off the mark. I assume nothing less from you.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Once again, and in the spirit of this excellently written and portrayed viewpoint of the con-servative and RepubliKlan right ("alt-right"), by our host, I offer the following:

"'You can’t con people, at least not for long,' Trump wrote in The Art of the Deal. 'If you don’t deliver the goods, people will eventually catch on.' His supporters may prove otherwise."

This, from the National Review, no less.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
And being the National Review, they needed to employ TP's tactic of equating Trump's lies with Obama's.

Trump’s entire personal and professional history is Obama-esque: When it serves his interests, Trump lies. He has lied to business associates, employees, friends, spouses, and now to millions of prospective voters. Anyone who thinks that Trump will not lie to them, or that he will at least tell the truth about “important things” — immigration or ISIS or whatever — is deluding himself. When it becomes expedient for Trump to lie, he will.

You see? There's no difference. In fact Trump is "Obama-esque". Yes, Trump's racist birther lies were soooo "Obama-esque", weren't they? You know, just like FDR was "Hitler-esque".

They NEED to equate Trump with Obama, like they avoided the fact Bush was a more dangerous liar than Obama.

All presidents lie, but not all lies are equally benign. When forced to concede to "non-alternative-facts", the Right MUST continue their dishonest denials of reality.

It's who, or rather, what they are. It is their authoritarian nature to deflect, distort and deny for their Dear Leader.

Note TP's approval of all the "good" that Trump has done. Sure, Trump lies, but, you know, it's only bad when Democrats do it.

People get far too upset over "locker room banter" and "innocent fibs". And pay no attention to Trump advocating war crimes or inviting Russian hacking to help him win the election.

Liberals are so thin-skinned. They don't get that IOKIYAR.





T. Paine said...

So JG and DD think that comedians provide a better and more thorough source of news than does Fox News. I am not surprised. Your biases are showing however. I am also not surprised that Dave thinks NPR (National Politburo Radio) is a wonderful source of news too. That is fine. Frankly I think it would fade from existence quickly if it were not supported by tax dollars. I think if they had to rely only on listener support, the liberal audience would scream bloody murder that they had to fund the left-wing programming on their own dime. NPR, PBS, and the national endowment for that arts are all good places to stem the blood flow of tax payers dollars for starters.

As I have said, I get my news from various sources on both sides of the political spectrum. The obnoxious NPR is NOT one of those sources however. I wonder if JG or DD get any of their information from ANY source that is not left of center? I suspect not as they don't wish to have their confirmation biases upset.

As for Trump, I do not support torture. (That said, I also disagree that waterboarding rises to that level. You are aware that they train our own military by waterboarding them too, right?) Further, he did not advocate unilaterally "taking" Iraqi oil. He stated that if we spend our blood and treasure in defense of other nations, like Iraq, then they should help pay for that... perhaps with oil. And as for Russia, do you really think that he was serious about asking them to hack the DNC on TV in front of untold millions of Americans? If he really did want to collude with Russia, he would have done so very discreetly behind closed doors, don't you think? You have a hard time separating sarcastic humor from reality in this case, Mr. Dubya.

It is interesting to note that most leftist folks are furious about the Democrats being hacked but are not seemingly all that upset at what was learned by that hacking. The DNC worked with Hillary, against the law, to help give her an up over Bernie Sanders. They found out about conversations where Hillary was dismissive and contemptuous toward some groups of people, especially Catholics that adhered to the teachings of their faith. (NOT like Joe Biden or Nancy Pelosi, in other words.)

Is Trump out of control? I don't think so; however, he does give me cause to worry that he could become so. Does he lie? Yep. Are his lies greater than Obama's? Perhaps in some areas. In others, Obama is still the "winner".

I don't approve of either Republicans or Democrats doing so, despite your incessant whiny complaint of "IOKIYAR".

Trump, for good or ill, has come into office and started enacting the agenda he ran on. And that makes him "Dear Leader" in Dave's book.

Obama came in and circumvented the constitution and bribed senators to support Obamacare. He systematically degraded our first, second, fourth, and tenth amendment rights and I don't recall hearing a peep from you Dave. Is that because IOKIYAD?

Dave Dubya said...

As the Kremlin mourns the loss of one of their puppets in the White House, we at least have a new template on how to excuse lies and deception.

Flynn wrote in his resignation letter, “Unfortunately, because of the fast pace of events, I inadvertently briefed the Vice President Elect and others with incomplete information regarding my phone calls with the Russian Ambassador.”

Try it. Just fill in the blanks.

“Unfortunately, because of the fast pace of events, I inadvertently briefed ______ and others with incomplete information regarding_____.”

“Unfortunately, because of the fast pace of events, I inadvertently briefed my wife and others with incomplete information regarding my weekend at Club Med.”

Of course Dear Leader NEVER "inadvertently briefed" ANYONE with "incomplete information".

For Kim Jong Don is just and pure and wise.

Dave Dubya said...

TP.
I am not surprised. Your biases are showing however.

This is projection. I supported my point with evidence. You offer ONLY your very biased opinion. This has been your pattern, and the radical Right’s, all along. Feeling over fact. Opinion over reality.

NPR was a vital non-corporate news source. You know, actual balance. Now PBS and NPR are depending on corporate sponsors due to Republicans gutting it. Your opinion on their accuracy is again just that. Your bias is clear with “obnoxious” being about NPR and NOT FOX(R). Very sad.

Your highly inaccurate apologies for Trump can be found unquestioned on Breitbart and FOX, BTW. Too bad CNN and others allow Trump’s liars on the air.

“True believers” will not be open to facts, evidence and truth.

And your equating Obama’s lies with Trump’s is grossly false. Trump has lied every day. Multiple times every day. His cronies repeat his lies. Multiple times every day. I dare you to show this to be true of Obama. You act as if Obama is the one demanding Trump’s birth certificate and calling the president a foreign usurper. Never mind how Russia was involved at Dear Leader’s behest. “Sarcastic humor” ? More Trump koolade, buddy. I suppose Flynn was just showing more of that “Sarcastic humor” too?

You don’t recall my criticisms of Obama because you either choose not to, or haven’t read with comprehension.

IOKIYAR. Or do you really want to argue Obama would have been elected after admitting to criminal sexual conduct?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

T. Paine: "So JG and DD think that comedians provide a better and more thorough source of news than does Fox News."

I believe my actual words were: "The truth...is certainly more informative and educational than omissions and/or 'alternative facts' and no humor at all."


"NPR, PBS, and the national endowment for that arts are all good places to stem the blood flow of tax payers dollars for starters."

Wouldn't a more apropos "blood flow" be the grossly exorbitant flow going to DoD?...and the unknown amount going into the secret coffers of the intelligence community?


"As I have said, I get my news from various sources on both sides of the political spectrum."

I'm sorry, but five minutes of watching what you consider "liberal media" doesn't qualify. If so, I can confidently make the same case. ;-)



"It is interesting to note that most leftist folks are furious about the Democrats being hacked but are not seemingly all that upset at what was learned by that hacking."

Not this member of the "leftist folks". It was a travesty. (You seem to forget that I'm not a Democrat, and also that I do not consider Democrats "leftists" or liberals. The Democratic Party belongs on the same side of the aisle as the Republicans. They're two segments of the very same philosophy -- adhering to, and subject to, the ideology and doctrine of the corporatocracy. Why you haven't come to grips with this is bewildering to me.)


"Is Trump out of control?"

Yes...and how deep and far he needs to go before you agree with me is anybody's guess. (His whole history is one of "being out of control". Go ahead, deny it.)


"Trump, for good or ill, has come into office and started enacting the agenda he ran on."

Do you mean the agenda of white supremacy -- frequently overlapping with Neo-Nazism, nativism, Islamophobia, anti-feminism, and with an offering of homophobia to stir the pot? You mean that agenda? (Or do you mean the obvious upcoming co-agenda of more corporatism?)


Obama systematically degraded our first, second, fourth, and tenth amendment rights..."

I agree -- yet you conveniently choose to ignore the grand-purveyor of these crippled and suffering rights, George W. Bush. Why is that?

Kulkuri said...

Americans have been long conditioned to revere wealth, and view the wealthy as morally and intellectually superior to the general population.
Religion has played a large part it this, religion has conditioned their flocks to worship the rich!!

T. Paine said...

We have a Catholic radio channel here in Utah (of all places) that is 100% fully listener funded. Indeed the Immaculate Heart network is funded by private donors across the nation. I don't know why the Left thinks they need a tax-payer funded leftist network instead of letting it stand on its own merits by listener or advertising support. I guess big government needs a big mouthpiece in order to champion it growth.

That said, "Fox News is stupid" is little more than leftist Alinsky tactics. From National Review:

"Ironically, these 'Fox News Viewers Are Stupid!' stories are little more than a large and intense exercise in confirmation bias, indulgences of the very thing that the people who push them attribute to their antagonists. The Left has learned over the years that winning debates is difficult but discrediting people and institutions is relatively easy. You point the finger and yell 'racist!' or 'stupid!' or 'stupid racist!' long enough and loud enough and it will start to stick. And for a long time, the Left did not have to do very much debating, because there was no Fox News, no Rush Limbaugh et al., and no conservative alternatives online. Now there are, and so the Left’s most pressing order of business is the delegitimization of Fox News, Rush Limbaugh et al., and conservative alternatives online. And if that doesn’t work, Harry Reid is ready to repeal the First Amendment, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is ready to see you locked up for your political views."

http://www.nationalreview.com/article/411560/fox-news-obsession-kevin-d-williamson

Oh, and I don't apologize for Trump. When he is right, I will say so. When he is wrong I will say so. The Left often seems to want to demonize everything one says or does if they don't like the source. It is brilliant display of their tolerance and open-mindedness. Because I am able to pull out the good and reject the bad, that makes me a "true believer" in your eyes because I won't denounce the fact that President Trump is wasting good air by breathing.

Trump was a foolish idiot and wrong to proceed with his birther quest. It was a calculated hoax for political gain on his part. It was wrong. That said, starting one's political career in the living room of an unrepentant domestic terrorist (Bill Ayers) evidently is nothing to be concerned with, according to the Left. I think your Kool Aid is simply of a different flavor, my friend.

"Or do you really want to argue Obama would have been elected after admitting to criminal sexual conduct?"

Why not? It worked for Bill Clinton's re-election. But I guess IOKIYAD, right?

T. Paine said...

"Wouldn't a more apropos 'blood flow' be the grossly exorbitant flow going to DoD?...and the unknown amount going into the secret coffers of the intelligence community?"

JG, I agree and disagree with you, sir. There is a HUGE amount of government waste that can and must be stripped back there. (I noted that Trump demanded that Boeing renegotiate the contract for making the next Air Force One due to its exorbitant cost.) All of that said, national defense and intelligence are some of the few constitutional expenditures that are allowed. The NEA, NPR, and PBS are extra-constitutional at best.

And for the record, I typically peruse the NY Times and will watch several hours of CNN or MSNBC each week, particularly if there is important news breaking.

"Not this member of the 'leftist folks'".

Yes, JG, I didn't necessarily mean you in this statement. You are indeed separate from many of your leftist brothers and sisters as you decry the Left's and Right's excesses and deceits far more readily than most of them.

"Do you mean the agenda of white supremacy -- frequently overlapping with Neo-Nazism, nativism, Islamophobia, anti-feminism, and with an offering of homophobia to stir the pot? You mean that agenda? (Or do you mean the obvious upcoming co-agenda of more corporatism?)"

JG, you and I were finding common ground and then you went foaming at the mouth, sir. I had to check if it was you or Dave stating this. Those epithets seem largely like Leftist talking points. Neo-Naziism? Islamophobia? Why? Is he planning to abuse Netanyahu like Obama did? Is his temporary ban from seven out of 50 predominantly Muslim nations rise to the level of a phobia to you, sir? And where is his manifestation of homophobia? I don't recall him making a case for repealing gay "marriage" or any other such issue. His vulgar sexism in the past compels me to give you that point though. ;)

Lastly, I acknowledge and agree that George W. Bush also was responsible for degrading some of our constitutional rights like that of unreasonable search and seizure with his NSA eavesdropping. He also violated 10th amendment rights. I don't recall him violating first or second amendment rights though, like Obama did.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

T. Paine: "I typically peruse the NY Times and will watch several hours of CNN or MSNBC each week..."

You consider these leftist?! Hmm...

I don't read or watch any that you cited, since I view each as an extension of the arm of corporatism. They're all examples of corporate mainstream media -- all mouthpieces of the government.


"...you and I were finding common ground and then you went foaming at the mouth, sir."

Hardly foaming at the mouth, but certainly not going to let you get away with forgetting his words on the campaign trail.


"I don't recall [George W. Bush] violating first or second amendment rights though, like Obama did."

Possibly not like Obama, but equally so. Keep in mind I certainly was not in agreement with Congress at the time, but the 1994 assault-weapon ban expired
in September, 2004, and Bush stated that he favored extending the ban. Just playing the role of memory-check for you. Actually agreed with him on this at the time, although considering where we're heading I'm not so sure anymore.

Regarding First Amendment rights, and since you seem to have a selective memory, let me spell it out for you: P.A.T.R.I.O.T. A.C.T.

Starting to come back to you yet?

Dave Dubya said...

TP,

While I'm happy to correct your wrong information and challenge your false beliefs, this does get to be a chore due to the sheer volume of material.

“Harry Reid is ready to repeal the First Amendment, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is ready to see you locked up for your political views."

Right. Utter con-sense. Direct from a conservative opinion piece. As I said....you offer opinion against my facts and evidence.

Fox news LIES. Trump LIES. FOX(R) LIES for the Republican Party and parrots Trump. This is not opinion. This is fact .


Fox News anchor Eric Bolling defended Donald Trump on Tuesday against widespread media criticism of his unproven claim that thousands of New Jersey Muslims cheered as the World Trade Centers came down on 9/11.

“So I remember this day, and I stood on the New York side and I watched the plane fly into the tower,” Bolling began during a conversation on “The Five.”

“I remember specifically the news reports about Jersey City. They said people were on the roofs watching the planes fly in,” he continued.

He then said he couldn’t recall whether he saw video of Muslims cheering from New Jersey or across the globe.

“I remember video, I don’t remember if it was Pakistan or Paterson [New Jersey]. But there was also a lot of talk,” Fox News’ Eric Bolling said, at a round table discussion, on Monday.

Bolling concluded that it doesn’t matter whether it was thousands cheering or a handful. “Who cares?”


Who cares, amirite? Just one case in many, I’ll add.

Here’s another fact. Kommisar Bannon ran a propaganda operation that he admitted drew racists into his “alt Right” dogma. Donald got his “3 million illegal voters” BS from Alex Jones. How about THOSE sources? Worse than NPR, no doubt, but not according to you and Trump.

So you declare NPR is a “ tax-payer funded leftist network”, but once again, you don’t cite evidence to support your OPINION.

Here we go again with the “unrepentant domestic terrorist (Bill Ayers)”. Did Obama support Ayers BEFORE he was born? So did Ayers kill as many people as Christian terrorists blowing up a federal building, shooting up a Black church, or murdering doctors? NO. He didn't kill anyone. He was a criminal, yes.

Some “terrorist”. Are you saying Obama was conspiring with Ayers to blow somebody up? Just what the hell are you saying? You are parroting something entirely irrelevant. You are pulling the “guilt by association” BS. You act as if Ayers, not Bush, sent thousands of Americans to their deaths in a war based on lies. There’s your real terrorist.

Chicago Magazine reported that "just before the September 11th attacks," Richard Elrod, a city lawyer injured in the Weathermen's Chicago "Days of Rage," received an apology from Ayers and Dohrn for their part in the violence. "[T]hey were remorseful," Elrod says. "They said, 'We're sorry that things turned out this way.

Once again you have lied with your parroting of “unrepentant domestic terrorist”.

But that’s the least of your reality impaired dogma.

"Or do you really want to argue Obama would have been elected after admitting to criminal sexual conduct?"

Why not?


And there is your complete separation from reality.

Apologies for Trump:

I also disagree that waterboarding rises to that level. The law, and basic human decency, say otherwise.

he did not advocate unilaterally "taking" Iraqi oil. Yes he did, on multiple occasions.

” sarcastic humor” Is the BS Trump finally backed into. Embracing his “explanation” is your apology for Trump. YOU bought it. BTW Dear Leader just said, “I don’t kid”, so you have it both ways.

Now Kremlin Flynn is gone due to his wrongful kissing up to Putin. How does Komrade Paine deal with that one?

T. Paine said...

JG, you are right, sir. The Patriot Act was indeed a huge violation of constitutional rights. I stand corrected on that issue and am indeed embarrassed that I did neglect that.

T. Paine said...

“Harry Reid is ready to repeal the First Amendment, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is ready to see you locked up for your political views."

Links were attached to explain that statement Dave.

"So you declare NPR is a “ tax-payer funded leftist network”, but once again, you don’t cite evidence to support your OPINION."

Really? It is inarguable that they are supported by taxpayer money. The fact that you are so far to the left that you do not recognize leftist bias in the media is not surprising. To you, they are simply professing an "unbiased" truth, and not left wing agenda talking points, right?

"Did Obama support Ayers BEFORE he was born?"

How is that even relevant? Ayers is a terrorist and Obama enlisted his support to kick off his political career. If Trump had started out his political career in the living room of David Duke, it would matter GREATLY to you, as well it should! But your sad argument is that Ayers isn't a REALLY BAD terrorist like Timothy McVeigh. If a politician of any party was seeking the help or endorsement of McVeigh or ANY terrorist, I would be apoplectic towards that person too. Ayers ran with the Weatherman underground and even in later years refused to apologize for his actions. In fact, the bastard said he wished they had done more. The fact that his group didn't kill anyone was largely due to their incompetence, it would seem. THIS is who President Obama stood beside as he began his career in politics. THAT seems like a far more egregious sin than even the vulgarity and sexual assaults Trump boasted of. (But I suppose that is a racist statement to you too.)

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/167989/bill-ayers-unrepentant-lying-terrorist-andrew-c-mccarthy

Next, I guess we have tortured our willing special forces members then with waterboarding because Dave and the left are now the arbiters of what constitutes human decency. I swear I am living in Bizzaro world.

Trump may very well be dangerous but he is not going to ask in earnest that Russia hack his political enemies while the cameras are rolling. If you think otherwise, then I am coming to see who really isn't grounded in reality, sir.

Flynn is gone and rightfully so. He broke the law and lied to the V.P. Further, I am not a fan of Putin or Russia. They are not our friend and we should tread very carefully with them. We don't need to be intentionally antagonistic, but they definitely do not have our best interest at heart. Isn't that part of the reason why the militant left always liked the Soviets? I served and fought against the commie bastards in the cold war. I hardly wanted to celebrate their workers' paradise like some dumb assed Berkley burn-the-flag ass-hat.

Dave Dubya said...


TP,

You are right, Russians "definitely do not have our best interest at heart". This is why they helped Trump win after being invited to hack. Dear Leader has said worse things about Nordstrum than Putin. Why do you suppose?

“Harry Reid is ready to repeal the First Amendment, and Robert F. Kennedy Jr. is ready to see you locked up for your political views."

Links were attached to explain that statement Dave.


Yes, links to an OPINION article. Neither Harry Reid nor RFK Jr. could “repeal the First Amendment”, nor did they announce such intentions. RFK said he wished there was a law that threw polluters in jail. Facts, again.

Ayers ran with the Weatherman underground and even in later years refused to apologize for his actions.

And the fact you have ignored, once again:

Chicago Magazine reported that "just before the September 11th attacks," Richard Elrod, a city lawyer injured in the Weathermen's Chicago "Days of Rage," received an apology from Ayers and Dohrn for their part in the violence. "[T]hey were remorseful," Elrod says. "They said, 'We're sorry that things turned out this way.

“Ayers is a terrorist.” False. He’s not terrorizing anyone anymore. Do you think he’s still dangerous? You act as if he and Obama were plotting bombings together. So much for your Christian forgiveness. And he’s done nothing to you.


A review of records of the schools project and interviews with a dozen people who know both men, suggest that Mr. Obama, 47, has played down his contacts with Mr. Ayers, 63. But the two men do not appear to have been close. Nor has Mr. Obama ever expressed sympathy for the radical views and actions of Mr. Ayers, whom he has called “somebody who engaged in detestable acts 40 years ago, when I was 8.” – New York Times OCT. 3, 2008


You are implying guilt by association. That is your entire point. That is what fascists do. Are you a fascist? Ayers was remorseful. Christians forgive upon remorse. Are you a Christian? Your hate for Obama blinds you. Yes it can only be described as hate, when facts and reason are ignored in order to hold resentments and false beliefs.

Now you are lecturing me that I can waterboard someone and it will be legal? The law says it is torture. Human decency says it is torture. You are a pro-torture, non-forgiving Christian at best then.

How many of our soldiers have been waterboarded a hundred times by their captors?

Do you know what happened to our enemies caught waterboarding our men? Did we let them go, saying, “Aww, it’s just a fraternity prank”? Your false equivalence knows no bounds.

Anna Van Z said...

Excellent piece, Dave, and very well supported. It's so refreshing to find such an oasis in the desert of conservative corporate media, which is not only post-factual, it's outright delusional.

I sometimes wonder whether the conservatard troll brigades actually believe their spew, or if what passes for their brains got stuck when the stress of learning their assigned talking points got to be too much for the poor lil' buggers.

Our area here has been positively reborn with activism - it's been wonderful and exciting!



Dave Dubya said...

Anna,

Thanks.

They are a cult of true believers.

If nothing else, Trump's abusive thrashing of the public trust might just wake up enough Americans to get off their passive asses and engage politically.

We outnumber them, dammit.