Friday, May 3, 2024

Good Faith

 

Some readers will recall I have offered our Trump supporting fellow Americans a format for good faith discussion a number of times.

One example is my request for any information they had to set me straight. What are the facts I am missing? Just fill in the blanks.

Dave, I have to say you are stating falsehoods by claiming (_____) and (_______). These verifiable facts and evidence (_____) and (____) suggest you are quite mistaken.

Another was a simple request to enlighten me as to their understanding of just WHEN America was great before 2016. How far was it they wanted Trump to take us back? When were those golden years of greatness? Were they the years when Clinton balanced the budget with a surplus?

Again, all they had to do was fill in the blanks.

Trump WILL make America great again, like it used to be before 2016, from the years_____ to  ____.

Not one Trumpist was up for the challenge. Apparently, it's easier to just call me a commie. I'll refer to a couple examples of how they respond.

Exhibit A: Trumpist blogger Darrell wondered if there could be common ground between the left and right. My suggestion for common ground was agreement that Trump lost a fair election in 2020, and he lied about non-existent massive voter fraud that cheated him, and he illegally attempted to overturn the certified legal results.   So, he "informed" me I'm a communist.

"Oh, and by the way, when I called you a communist, it wasn’t necessarily meant as a pejorative but rather more as a descriptive term. You support many of the very tenets of the communist creed according to what you have written in the past that are antithetical to America, its values, and its Constitution. So while you see that is retaliatory name-calling, I meant it only as classifier of your stated beliefs in big-government, anti-capitalism, anti-faith, and anti-family rhetoric."

After numerous requests for any citation of my words promoting communism, he failed or ignored me every time. What he's saying is I disagree with him and that makes me a commie. This hysteria has been with us since the post-Bolshevik revolution Red Scare to McCarthyism but has been amplified to the extreme by Trumpism. The more fear and anxiety white conservatives feel in their racial resentments and culture wars the more “communists” they see. This is at the root of white nationalism.

Instead of discussing a topic, this is the type of anger and hostility we see in the Trumpist reaction to an invitation to good faith discussion.

Exhibit B: Just the Facts aka Vern resorted to dismissal and denigration. 

"debate with him in good faith" Bull Shit

And there it is. The Trumpist idea of good faith discussion. This proves again they really don't want to LISTEN to ANYTHING that Trump doesn't want them to hear. He is their Master and commander. They will obey him and BELIEVE his words as gospel. So, to them there's no need to consider what anyone else has to say. He is their new religious leader, one they are utterly incapable of imagining to be a conman, a charlatan, a deceiver, a malevolent mendacious messiah filling them with hate and lies.

Their closed-minded belief system must regard anyone who opposes him as evil villains, out to persecute their innocent and maligned savior. Trump’s paranoia and projection becomes THEIR paranoia and projection.

As the social media memes say, “We won’t change the minds of Trump supporters with facts, logic, or appeals of decency. If they could be influenced by these, they wouldn’t be Trump supporters.” And “They will never admit he’s guilty because that would mean admitting he made fools of them all”.

And thus, they are locked into being true believers to the bitter end. They will eagerly buy into their leader's paranoid persecution complex. "Never forget our enemies want to take away my freedom, because I will never let them take away your freedom." 

Invoking evil "enemies" is at the heart of the political indoctrination by every fascist and dictator. The darkness this portends is truly chilling.

All they can do is demean and insult the person who questions their Dear Leader's lies. Like any cult of true believers, they can be violent thugs in service to their leader, as they showed us on January 6. This fanaticism has already resulted in death and injuries. Tragically this means more death and destruction will come from this white nationalist movement. They want their power and white nationalist minority rule and will do ANYTHING to seize it.

Trump is America's savior to them. And his true believers hate us for opposing him. They must demonize us as "communists who hate America", the worst thing their enraged, deluded, and deranged minds can concoct.

Obviously, they need ZERO words or evidence to back their absurd paranoid accusations, because they ARE paranoid. All Trumpist white nationalists are terrified of being "replaced". The idea of a multiracial democracy scares the wits out of them.

Xenophobia and racism are their default reaction to immigration.

The Washington Post noted this recent manufactured outrage.

Now, both Trump and MAGA Inc., a super PAC that backs him, claim that Biden is funding a Michigan program that they say provides rent to undocumented immigrants. A MAGA radio ad claims: “Did you see Biden’s paying rent for illegals now? They get handouts and we pay for all of it.” In a video posted on social media, Trump said Biden was “selecting and stealing your money to give free housing to illegal alien migrants and then asking you to quarter these foreign armies.”

At issue is a Michigan program, launched last year, under which individuals who qualify may receive as much as $500 a month in rental subsidies for up to 12 months. The key word is “qualify” — the subsidies in question are not available to people in the country illegally.

Their final solution is a dictator and Trump promised to be one. He WILL refuse to accept the will of the voters if he loses, and likely stoke more violence. He is their great white hope to keep their white minority in power. And make no mistake, this is EXACTLY their idea of what makes America great.

They will regurgitate Russian propaganda and corrupt and undermine our House, Senate, the courts, and our elections to permanently establish white Christian Nationalist minority rule. Their Furious Fuhrer is already calling for brown shirt style intimidation by an army of “poll watchers”. MAGA threats have already resulted in massive resignations of election workers. He’s filling their paranoid fantasies with neo-Nazi rhetoric of an ominous "definite anti-white feeling" in America.

Yes, we've seen it all before. In the last century they howled about "anti-Aryan communist Jews, anti-German socialists, journalists, and educators” ALL standing in the way of making Germany great again.

Today they howl about "Anti-white, America-hating Marxists, Communists, socialists, radical leftists, Black racists, Brown invaders, child molesting LGBTQ Americans, in ADDITION to enemies of the people like journalists and educators" aka Democrats and their voters, ALL standing in the way of making America great again. 

The true believer fanatics embrace a vengeful indicted criminal and authoritarian sociopath who divides our country with hate and lies. Neo-Nazis, Proud Boys, Oath Keepers, the Klan, and other election denying, anti-democracy American white nationalist Trumpists are showing us their true heritage.

And that heritage is the direct opposite of a democratic republic with bipartisan legislative cooperation and compromise by good faith discussion and debate.


33 comments:

Les Carpenter said...

I am very happy, and quite inclined to say, in no way shape or form is MAGA actually doing ANYTHING but attempting to destroy everything that is good about America and replace it with what America and its allies defeated in 1944/45. Facism.

Ignorance and fear are a very dangerous combination. Both lie at the very epicenter of trumpism and MAGA.

The fever of rethuglican MAGA to destroy democracy and our republic and replace it with an authoritarian dictatorial Czar like ruler is something i would never in a million years have thought would happen in the US of A. But then trump, the meglomaniacal xenophobic mentally unstable charlatan hit the scene. So, here we are, facing the greatest existential threat to the continued existence of our republic since the Civil War of 1860-1864.

The trump inspired MAGA cultists are but a group of willing authoritarian minded thugs standing at the tipping point of the desruction of the Constitution of the United States of America.

As for me, well, Truth Shall Set One Free. I know the truth of MAGA and trumpism. I'm good.

Dave Dubya said...

Les,
Trump is the authoritarian "great white hope" for the white Christian Nationalists who have been working this coup for decades. They got Roe v Wade overturned but that's just the beginning. They want the majority of Americans to be silent subjects of their vengeful theocracy, and nothing less.

The rights of women, minorities, and the LGBTQ community are being gutted. The Civil Rights and Voting Rights acts are being dismantled.

Trump's white nationalist messages aren't even dog whistles anymore. He spilled his tactics and intentions in his Time Magazine interview.

He set the stage with his election lies and fascist accusations of the press being "enemies of the people". And they have taken hold to a frightening degree. His lies and smears on our justice system and courts ("racist" Black judges and prosecutors and "Marxist" white judges and prosecutors) are incessant.

He wants the military to be used in domestic law enforcement and for crowd CONTROL.

He wants to give police absolute immunity for any violence they perpetrate upon citizens.

He wants the entire DOJ to prosecute everyone who has tried to hold him accountable.

He wants his crooked judges to imprison Biden and other Democrats (vermin) for opposing him.

And true to his neo-Nazi nature, he invokes the false and racist specter of "anti-white feeling" and "bias against white people".

This artificial victimhood for the authoritarian leader and his followers is from the playbook of every fascist tyrant.

The only thing he's making great again is neo-Nazi White Nationalism.

This is how America is transformed into a dictatorship and police state.

I saw the end of the republic when Bush Jr. was allowed a second term after LYING us into a war of aggression in Iraq. The American public has been dumbned down, misinformed and indoctrinated by radical Right propaganda and media for decades. The time is right for their ongoing coup to triumph over democracy.

I have little hope for the future. I don't know how it is possible to educate and inform enough people who believe his lies and embrace his message of bigotry, hate, and racism.

Then again, what else can we expect of a country founded on a Constitution that was crafted by slave owners and allowed only white male land owners the right to vote? Progress was made over the years, but is being undone. There will be no amendments added to deter white minority rule.

The electoral college and grossly unrepresentative Senate have left us a system that favors the rich and facilitates conservative white minority rule by those who deeply fear and mistrust a multi-racial democratic republic.

People have survived under tyrants in the past, although not without great suffering and upheaval. We can't stop the country or the world from going mad.

Trumpism, Christian Nationalism, fascism, Putinism, communism, deregulated capitalism, jihadist Islam, radical Right Zionism, and political groupthink are the antithesis of our path to peace, truth and reason.

But, alas, having the masses embracing even the simplistic "golden rule" is beyond the capability of institutionalized religions. Love for our fellow human beings has never been politically useful or desirable. Thus we have the constant cultivation of division, resentments, anger, fear, and hate.

What a species we are! Dogs show us better examples of unconditional love than most fundamentalist religious humans ever could.

This is why we need to individually cultivate our own inner peace, and freedom of thought and conscience. I found elements of Eastern Buddhism and the Western classical stoicism of Seneca, Epictetus, and Marcus Aurelius offer access to this path.

Or as George Clinton put it 50 years ago, "Free your mind and your ass will follow". ;-)


JoeBama "Truth 101" Kelly said...

We're fighting an impossible battle to win over anyone that loves Trump. Trump is whatever they want him to be whatever he says or does. He does a good job exploiting this ignorance. Kudos for that.
My hometown is peppered with "God and Trump" signs. In my experience the religious zealots hold the wealthy in great esteem. To the point of reverence. And the wealthy foot a large part of the bills for churches. They get a church gymnasium or some other thing named after them. So making the wealthy the enemy is never going to work. Our hope is that enough people that are the occasional voter votes against Trump. We're seeing that with the abortion issue. But our Nation is once again in the position that perhaps the only group that can save us from another Trump presidency is Black voters. They saved us in 2020. But it's alot to ask for them to do it again seeing as how they've been treated for the most part like crap since log before our founding. This leaves me with nothing else to do but channel my inner Thomas Jefferson and either avoid conversations with trumpists or ridicule them. I tend to go with ridicule as that's more fun.

Dave Dubya said...

JoeBama,

We absolutely cannot reason with them, but we need to call out and condemn their hate and lies.

Since they cannot even process our facts and reasoning, that leaves us to ridicule them as our last recourse.

If Blacks, younger people, women or anyone else are apathetic in this election, they are responsible for the consequences, and whatever happens to them as a result of the demise of our flawed and failing democracy.

Just the Facts! said...

"our facts" and within there lies the blindness of the democrats, leftists and liberals to reality. Only "their" facts count.

Dave Dubya said...

Vern,
Our facts are facts. Yours are "alternative facts" aka LIES.

Here you go. Set me straight.

Dave, I have to say you are stating falsehoods by claiming (_____) and (_______). These verifiable facts and evidence (_____) and (____) suggest you are quite mistaken.

There's a reason why no radical Right Trumpist DARES to fill in this simple form. Trump's LIES are gospel in their cult, but can't stand the light of day or under examination in a court of law.

Come on, Vern. Show us what you got. LOL!

Dave Dubya said...

Well, Vern showed me what he has.

More bad faith deflections, false accusations, and questions with ZERO facts to fill in the blanks.

If he wants anything else posted here, he needs to stop demanding answers to endless asinine questions, like "Do you support Hamas?".

Not a word from him until he responds in good faith to set me straight.

Burgermeister said...

The guardrails the Founders put in the Constitution to protect America from the well-known and inevitable decline of a democracy still require a moral and thoughtful citizenry. We have neither. Look at this list of reasons given for the decline of the Roman republic:

There Was An Imbalance Of Power Between The Aristocracy And The Rest Of Society
They Broke Into Factions Who Prioritized Their Own Aims Over Their Republic
Ancient Democracies Limited Voting To Select Citizens
Demagogues Were Able To Easily Persuade A Misled Populace
Political Campaigns Were Expensive And Mired In Controversy
Certain Individuals Had Their Own Personal Military
Senators Stalled Vital Legislation With Filibusters
Senators Began Using Violence To Get Rid Of Political Adversaries
Participation In Long-Running Wars Caused Regional Instability
Autocratic Powers Rigged Democratic Systems To Put Themselves In Power
All People Were Free To Live As They Pleased

As the Bible says, there is nothing new under the sun. The Founders tried to protect against the inevitable. They understood how fragile a democracy is and how dependent it is on the character of the citizens.

John Adams stated it this way, “Public virtue cannot exist in a Nation without private Virtue, and public Virtue is the only Foundation of Republics.

George Washington said: “Virtue or morality is a necessary spring of popular government,”[6] and “Human rights can only be assured among a virtuous people.”

Benjamin Franklin said: “Only a virtuous people are capable of freedom.”

James Madison stated: “To suppose that any form of government will secure liberty or happiness without any virtue in the people, is a chimerical [imaginary] idea.”

Thomas Jefferson wrote, “No government can continue good but under the control of the people; and … their minds are to be informed by education what is right and what wrong; to be encouraged in habits of virtue and to be deterred from those of vice … These are the inculcations necessary to render the people a sure basis for the structure and order of government.”

Samuel Adams said: “Neither the wisest constitution nor the wisest laws will secure the liberty and happiness of a people whose manners are universally corrupt. He therefore is the truest friend of the liberty of his country who tries most to promote its virtue.”

Patrick Henry stated that: “A vitiated [impure] state of morals, a corrupted public conscience, is incompatible with freedom.”

John Adams stated: “We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Avarice, ambition, revenge, or gallantry would break the strongest cords of our constitution as a whale goes through a net. Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
And I say that anyone that put any Credibility in anything said by an Idiotic Progressive is as Stupid as they are
I guess there is something cool about being witness to this shit show as it happens, but it's actually terrifying for those of us with children.

Just the Facts! said...

Hey Dave, how do you define "good faith"? Answers that you agree with?

What a farce you are.

Dave Dubya said...

Burgerneister,

Thank you for your lists.

I can't help but notice "Demagogues Were Able To Easily Persuade A Misled Populace" accurately describes FOX(R), Trump, Q-ANON, Alex Jones, Rush Limbaugh, and the rest of the election denying liars and sleazy Trump sycophants.

I agree that our leaders should be virtuous, as should we all. If you BELEIVE Trump is virtuous, your credibility and judgment of character are sadly lacking.

What you can't comprehend is Trump is anything BUT virtuous. Many conservatives who point this out are greeted with hateful scorn and called "RINOs". Democrats who point this out are called "Marxists" and "vermin".

That just reflects the lack of virtue in Trump and Trumpists more than about those who know he's a liar, a fraud, and a criminal.

And yet you totally BELEIVE Trump's every word is gospel. This is delusional and the epitome of the "low-information" and "poorly educated" American. You don't want to learn what you don't want to know.

Facts: Trump lost. Trump lied. Trump criminally tried to overturn our election. The overwhelming evidence is there, but his true believers REFUSE to even look at it.

Have you noticed how "Avarice, ambition, and revenge" is Trump's platform?

"I am your retribution!" "If I happen to be president and I see somebody who’s doing well and beating me very badly, I say, ‘Go down and indict them.’ They’d be out of business. They’d be out of the election,” Trump said.

Trump already tried to weaponize the DOJ by urging them to interfere with the 2020 election. "Just say the election was corrupt, and leave the rest to me and the House Republicans".

We wonder how you would say, "And I say that anyone that put any Credibility in anything said by an Idiotic Progressive is as Stupid as they are", and NOT set us straight with the facts?

I'm mildly disappointed you didn't avail yourself to an easy opportunity to set me straight by filling in the blanks for me.

Dave, I have to say you are stating falsehoods by claiming (_____) and (_______). These verifiable facts and evidence (_____) and (____) suggest you are quite mistaken.

How will we ever learn your truth if you can't even inform us?

It seems you don't know what you're talking about, so all you can do insult those of us who KNOW by verifiable evidence that Trump is a LIAR.

IF you can offer any verifiable information instead of simplistic false accusations, I'll gladly post it. But I'm not stupid enough to allow you to call me idiotic and stupid without any reason or information. That's just simple-minded hate, not good faith discussion.

Dave Dubya said...

Vern,
Instead of acting in good faith by offering information that indicates I am in error, you spew more BAD FAITH accusations and hate.

Hateful bullshit, false accusations, and deflections are really all you got. Typical white nationalist extremism.

One more time. Please set me straight.

Dave, I have to say you are stating falsehoods (or misunderstanding) by claiming (_____) and (_______). These verifiable facts and evidence (_____) and (____) suggest you are quite mistaken.

THIS is how good faith discussion works, but you want none of it, do you?

Feel free to show us your first attempt at good faith discussion. Anything else is deflection and bullshit and won't be added to the discussion.

Anonymous said...

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Dave Dubya said...

Anonymous,
Thank you for your link.
I might've read your blog if you'd have read mine before leaving your link.

Dave Dubya said...

Vern still won't respond to my invitation to good faith discussion and to set me straight.
He did alert me to a new NPR/PBS NewsHour/Marist National Poll.

https://maristpoll.marist.edu/polls/2024-race-for-the-white-house-may01/


It shows Biden (52%) is plus five percentage points against Trump (47%) among those who say they definitely plan to vote in November.

Dave Miller said...

Well Dave, I followed that link... it's interesting to say the least. Interesting in a late great planet earth kind of way.

Riffing off a couple of comments we both left elsewhere, I think the question of the day is facts. Is it possible that for many, there are no mutually acceptable facts?

What are acceptable sources of information to the MAGA crowd these days that we can use to enter into dialogue in 'Good Faith"?

Here's an example that can shed us some light... prior to the 2016 election, we heard from the MAGA campaign and conservatives that the government numbers under Obama showing economic growth and the lowering of unemployment were the result of "cooked books". However once Trump was elected suddenly those government numbers, from the same civil servants who produced them before and continued to show economic growth and low unemployment, became true and gospel.

Of course, once a certain president left office, those numbers became bogus again.

What are the sources of information and scholarship that the MAGA crowd will accept, especially when it pertains to our government?

Because without those sources, all we get are people complaining, devoid of real facts or focused on the "alternative" or "false facts" that Lisa said one day she liked to post.

And that precludes Good Faith.

Anonymous said...

What is Trump being charged with?

Dave Dubya said...


Dave,

Their minds are wrapped in BELIEFS that deny reality and in "alternative facts" that pervert reality. And here we are, trying vainly to show them 2+2=4 when Trump tells them 2+2=(Whatever he says it is). Good faith dialogue is impossible with a deranged cult.

The radical Right cannot win a debate or engage in good faith discussion because truth and facts are relative terms to be redefined BY THEM to suit their mood or occasion.

"Law and order" never applies to white nationalists, Trump, and Republicans. It's for urban Blacks, "antifa", and protestors against injustice.

Ironically, for being rigid authoritarians, they actually live by two contradictory and flexible doctrines that I discussed a few years ago.

http://www.davedubya.com/2021/10/prime-doctrines.html

The radical Right and Trump Cult have two Orwellian operating "principles".

The Two Prime Doctrines of the American Radical Right:

1. The Doctrine of Flexible Morality and Ethics. “It's OK if you’re a Republican.”

“Anything and everything. Identical words and actions are evil if by a Democrat, but never if by a Republican.”

(Right. "My body. My choice" is for antivaxxers, but NOT for women. If not for double standards, they’d have none.)

2. The Doctrine of Flexible Reality.*

“Everything is as we say, contradictions included, and everyone else is lying.”

* (Corollaries) “There is no such thing as a Doctrine of Flexible Morality and Ethics. There is no such thing as a Doctrine of Flexible Reality. Unless we say there is.”

(This doctrine was established and expanded upon by their propagandists over the decades, and employed every day across their cult. They were now ready for Trump, their Dear Leader of infallible words and deeds.)

I can’t think of anything these “principles” can’t cover in their deranged and delusional cult bubble.

Ignorance is strength.

2+2=5, comrades.

Dave Dubya said...

Only a low-information, apathetic American, or a MAGA troll, would ask, "What is Trump being charged with?"

Ever hear of google? Ever read or watch a news source that is NOT pro-Trump propaganda?

Apparently not, for this willfully ignorant and sad little troll.

Dave Miller said...

Anon... I'll bite.

“The People of the State of New York allege that Donald J. Trump repeatedly and fraudulently falsified New York business records to conceal crimes that hid damaging information from the voting public during the 2016 presidential election”

"After winning the election, TRUMP reimbursed the Special Counsel through a series of monthly checks, first from the Donald J. Trump Revocable Trust – created in New York to hold the Trump Organization’s assets during TRUMP’s presidency – and later from TRUMP’s bank account. In total, 11 checks were issued for a phony purpose. Nine of those checks were signed by TRUMP. Each check was processed by the Trump Organization and illegally disguised as a payment for legal services rendered pursuant to a non-existent retainer agreement. In total, 34 false entries were made in New York business records to conceal the initial covert $130,000 payment. Further, participants in the scheme took steps that mischaracterized, for tax purposes, the true nature of the reimbursements."

Hope this clears it up. It's not for having sex with a porn star. It's not for buying her silence. It's not for paying Playboy model Susan McDougal to keep quiet nor is it for paying the Trump Tower doorman to keep quiet.

It's for allocating that money from personal accounts and hiding the reason, which was to influence an election.

Which is a crime under New York law.

You see, a business must not cover up or falsify business records, which the state alleges.

Does this help?

Dave Dubya said...

Dave,
When, not if, Vern sends his bad faith response, I'll post it.

Dave Dubya said...

Dave,
Vern's response to your good faith answer to his question included a bad faith lie and deflection, "Dave defines good faith response as one that doesn't disagree with his position. Meanwhile,
Over three dozen agents from the U.S. Secret Service have called for an urgent congressional investigation into Joe Biden’s Marxist diversity, equity, and inclusion (DEI) initiatives".

This was my invitation to good faith discussion that Vern scorned:
=====
Vern,
Instead of acting in good faith by offering information that indicates I am in error, you spew more BAD FAITH accusations and hate.

Hateful bullshit, false accusations, and deflections are really all you got. Typical white nationalist extremism.

One more time. Please set me straight.

Dave, I have to say you are stating falsehoods (or misunderstanding) by claiming (_____) and (_______). These verifiable facts and evidence (_____) and (____) suggest you are quite mistaken.

THIS is how good faith discussion works, but you want none of it, do you?

Feel free to show us your first attempt at good faith discussion. Anything else is deflection and bullshit and won't be added to the discussion.
==

It's against their arrogant and authoritarian neo-Nazi nature to "lower" themselves to reasonable and civil dialogue. We are "vermin" to them and not worthy of basic human decency.

Plus the bottom line is he's not only just too stupid to fill in the blanks with facts, he is incapable. They HATE facts, almost as much as they hate anyone who opposes their beloved mendacious malevolent messiah.

Today they want to defund the FBI. But if Trump wins, he'll weaponize it to punish all who tried to hold him accountable to the rule of law and to interfere with the next election, like he tried to force them to do in 2020 with, "Just say the election was corrupt and leave the rest to me and the House Republicans".



Dave Miller said...

Dave, the irony of the "defund the FBI" folks is incredible. All pandemic long while the extreme left called for defunding the police, the MAGA crowd came unglued.

Now those same people who excoriated the left for those calls, are doubling down on the far left BS, calling to defund the FBI.

Let's remember too, these are the same folks who had nothing to say at the over 120 police officers beat, maimed and essentially tortured at the Capitol on Jan 6.

Why is that? Because the beaters were right wingers, so there seems to be a need to remain silent.

There is no "Good Faith" from the extreme MAGA folks.

None.

Dave Dubya said...

Dave,
It all comes down to character. Remember when "character" mattered to conservatives?

As they've shown us, it only mattered as a cudgel for their self-righteousness, hypocrisy, and bigotry.

It was always there. Trump just brought out and emboldened their true racist and fascist nature.

Dave Miller said...

Dave... Character. Yes...

That too belongs in a long list of questions for "conservatives" that goes like this...

___________ [fill in the blank], were you wrong in the past when you advocated for or supported this, or lying? Check one... Yes ____ or No ____

Character
Law and Order
Support for police
The Constitution
Free market
Checks and balances
Democracy

We could go on, but you get the point.

Salvatore said...

Three days ago the New Jersey Shore was swamped with 80, 000 Maga supporters as Donald Trump hit the stage in Wildwood for a sunset rally on the beach.

The former president arrived an hour-and-a-half late on Saturday at about 6.30pm local time for the event which was attended by 80,000 supporters, according to his campaign officials.

Thousands of fans gathered on the beach and along the boardwalk throughout the day wearing Trump masks and American flag-themed outfits, watching Trump csll Biden a “Total Moron”.

Dave Dubya said...

Sal,

Thanks for relaying Trump's inflated crowd numbers.

And I'm glad see you have no disagreement or relevant comment regarding any of my points. Maybe you'll think of something later?

Dave Dubya said...

Dave,
Yes, it's unfortunate that even Sal couldn't set us straight. But it must have made him FEEL better to brag about the size of his herd.

Les Carpenter said...

When facts lead, ignorance fails. Your fear JtF is that facts are in fact leading and your ignorance is failing. Just as it should be.

Dave Dubya said...

Les and Dave,

The depths of their hate, dishonest, and hypocrisy are bottomless.

“The creation of a unified Reich” from a pro-Trump video is their latest neo-Nazi dog whistle.

Dave Miller said...

Dave, I bet the photos Sal saw of that massive crowd were the fake ones posted by the Trump loyalists. Photos that came from a beach party in Brazil.

These folks are clueless.

Dave Dubya said...

Dave,

Sal saw what Trump wanted him to see. The radical Right propaganda network has been the real "fake news" ever since Limbaugh, Murdoch and later Trump's toady at the National Enquirer set out to deceive Americans into supporting Republicans.

Now they dedicate themselves to promoting Trump's Big Lie and suppressing accounts of his behavior and criminal charges.

Les Carpenter said...

The extreme right, as well as the extreme left, are in truth trying to accomplish the impossible. To bend reality to conform to their views and desires.

Think of life and indeed all phenomena as energy flows, with twists and turns, hills and gullies, and obstacles. The goal should be to go with the flow while successfully navigating all obstacles. Not trying to CHANGE the natural direction of the flow as determined by nature.

Just letting be can often be the best choice.

After the neo-Nazi MAGA movement's life is exhausted and extinguished.

Dave Dubya said...

Les,
Generally you're correct. But the radical Right has been effecting changes to suit their views and desires.

Reproductive freedoms are being canceled and now even birth control is under assault.

Voting rights are being restricted and outright election interference is being drafted into law by Republican state legislators.

There is nothing natural about this direction of the flow.