Monday, January 28, 2019

Post-truth Con-servatism



Ben Franklin warned us about being able to keep our republic. His caution was warranted, although he could not have foreseen how post-truth Con-servatism would take power over our republic.

The Cult of Right Wing Authoritarian Personalities (C.R.A.P.) has finally taken our country. The racist birtherism and bigotry of their Leader, and the racist denial of the Black President’s Constitutional duty to appoint a Supreme Court Justice will imbue our nation a tragic darkness of the soul for decades to come.

We understand the propaganda system based on lies, blame, false accusations, bigotry, racism, and fear-mongering has been their tool for gaining that power.

MRI’s inform us that the con-servative brain is different from the brains of the the rest of the population. The Right’s effective propaganda tactics trigger their emotional responses in their over active amygdalas, the primitive fight or flight center of the brain.

I’ve long ranted their authoritarian ideology is founded on belief over fact and feelings over reason. These intellectual and moral failings are tragic character flaws in authoritarian personalities that prohibit communication, cooperation, and compromise. Not that they have any desire or need for these qualities, of course. This is why they embrace anti-democratic, vote suppressing, totalitarian rule by a far Right minority .

Thanks to the testimonials and commentary from our far Right friends, we have evidence of the foundation and operating principles of the post-truth Con-servative ideology that is destroying out representative democracy.

We cannot reason with them. They reject reason. We cannot convince them of the importance of facts and evidence, because they reject facts and evidence that do not conform to their propaganda.

Fair fact-based dialogue and reasoned discussion are out of the question because fair fact-based dialogue and reasoned discussion do not conform to their feelings and beliefs.

I tried in vain to help them disagree rationally with me.

Even after I offered a simple template for rebuttal, no con-servative has risen to the level of competence to apply it. 

“Dave, I have to say you are wrong in stating (_____) and claiming (_______). These facts (_____) and (____) suggest you are mistaken.”

They can't fill in the blanks because they have been indoctrinated to BE the blanks that Trump and FOX(R) fill. Their post-truth ideological beliefs, aka alternative facts, are selected for them by their cult leaders.

We may as well ask them to gather facts and think for themselves. Like that will happen. They are indoctrinated to distrust journalists, educators and scientists. And most of all they are programmed to deny, demean, deflect, and distort what democrats, liberals or progressives say. Any tactic will do, rather than enter into honest discussion.

Their cult leaders know just what feeds their fear, anger, hate and self-righteous arrogance.

We’ve seen it all over their media and in corporate media appeasers. “Brown invaders are coming to join the 'Democrat Party' to spread communism!” and "Libtards hate America and want us to be another Venezuela!"

It just FEELS so good for them to BELIEVE that C.R.A.P. In their propaganda-addled mentality this is "Owning the libs".

It's far easier and comforting for them to regurgitate Trump, FOX(R), Breitbart, Coulter and Limbaugh. It is the essence of far Right corporatist and white nationalist identity politics.

Their victory over truth and human decency is the Great American Tragedy.

Democrats may have the House. Trump may even be impeached. But they are not defeated. They will bring it all down if we let them.

I would like to offer these definitions for our con-servative readers. Or would that be an oxymoron? Well, anyway, for the literate among us:

Oxford: "Post-Truth. Relating to or denoting circumstances in which objective facts are less influential in shaping public opinion than appeals to emotion and personal belief."

Wiki: "Post-truth politics (also called post-factual politics and post-reality politics) is a political culture in which debate is framed largely by appeals to emotion disconnected from the details of policy, and by the repeated assertion of talking points to which factual rebuttals are ignored."

This defines them. This defines Trump. This defines the Republican Party. This defines con-servatism.



56 comments:

Rex said...

Dave, do you know why I started out as belligerent as I was towards you and JG? It was because I had read and saw all of your awful, hateful, intolerant attitudes when you discussed any topic spanning back over YEARS on T's blog, and then on others too. I was reprimanded by someone I respect for responding in kind because it doesn't work to fight fire with fire. That only creates a bigger conflagration.

I think you are often wrong on many topics. You therefore characterize me as responding emotionally, without thinking for myself, and as following hateful racists. (Never mind the fact that I have agreed with you regarding aspects of Trump's racism.) That is fine, but your thoughtful analysis about what the typical "con-servative" is tells far more about your enlightenment, and susceptibility to propaganda than it does mine.

Look back at your posts. They are all basically the same: hate, demonization, and dehumanization. Do you really think that is going to change the world for the better? It ain't no world that I want to live in, I'll tell you that for sure!

I am praying for you, buddy. (And J.G. too!)

Dave Dubya said...

Rex,
Thank you for your prayers. I pray for sanity, compassion and truth for our country. None of these are present in the White House. At least bleeding heart liberals have a minimum of one of these qualities. Sanity and truth require effort from all of us.

I also thank you for your explanation, opinions and civil tone...and your judgment. I have been very civil with you, despite your initial attacks on me. You may resent my interpretation of your words and that is your prerogative.

Now, how about some facts to prove my points are wrong? I get that you feel I am wrong. That is apparent. In a sane society, facts should trump feelings. Not here in Trumpistan.

I'm not surprised you missed the hateful attitude and accusations from TP's angry Trump loving pal. That was the fire we fought with fire. TP was also much more tolerant of his pal's hate as well. I believe he shares his hate. He cannot admit it though.

Liberals have been demonized for decades, in case you missed all that."Libtards", "commies", and in your little buddy's repetitive invective that I approve of Nation of Islam.

Fuck that ignorance and hate.

When we retaliate, we are called "intolerant".

I hate hatred. I hate racism. I hate lies. I have no tolerance for intolerance. These are the fruits of Trump and his Party and it is a poison infecting our world. Deep down you may sense this, but do not want to admit it.

The Right's politics of deceit and division are inciting hate among Americans. Rule by the corporate elite demands a divide and conquer strategy upon the public. They have succeeded.

This hate is fueled by Trump, Republicans, FOX Breitbart and Limbaugh. Maybe you think Rachel Maddow is being just as hateful? This is perhaps a reaction to her use of facts. Facts inform our bias, as emotion informs your bias. This may explain your difficulty in fact based rebuttal.

I've spent years studying the authoritarian personality. I'm only sharing and documenting what I have learned. You and TP's sense that Trump is a vile person indicate you have a degree of awareness absent from many on the far Right. The rest of the country is disturbed how so many people can say, "He's a terrible person, but knows what's best for the people of this country".

Yeah. How does that make sense? Evil does not beget good. Trump the Lyin King MAGAt was not the lesser evil in any way. And if you think Putin has nothing on him, the facts indicate otherwise. Jr. admitted how much money they got from Russia. Is that fact to be ignored? Is Trump's betrayal of our country and capitulation to Putin in Helsinki not a telling fact?

The enemies of decency, democracy, voting rights, the Constitution, and consent of the governed are my enemies.

Please feel free to inform me where I am wrong. This means employing facts, and not references to emotions.

Just the Facts! said...

"And if you think Putin has nothing on him, the facts indicate otherwise."

Like what Dave? Just once list what Putin has on President Trump. Things that aren't from Buzz Feed or Daily Kos, but things that Mueller could use.

Just once.

Dave Dubya said...

JTF,
Facts:
Jr. admitted how much money they got from Russia. Is that fact to be ignored? Is Trump's betrayal of our country and capitulation to Putin in Helsinki not a telling fact?

Trump is cutting sanctions, and has never implemented the other sanctions for the poisoning in England. Russia can do no wrong for some reason. Just like Trump, amirite?

Mueller has more facts. Putin has the rest.

What facts do YOU have?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

...do you know why I started out as belligerent as I was towards you and JG? It was because I had read and saw all of your awful, hateful, intolerant attitudes when you discussed any topic spanning back over YEARS on T's blog..." ~~ "Rex"

"Awful"? Awful, as in diametrically opposed to your conservative viewpoints?...as in my opposition to your desire for unregulated capitalism (as only one example)?

"Hateful"? Hateful, as in my opposition to, and your apparent agreement with, your president's obvious and blatant coziness with not only Vladimir Putin -- but also other dictators and anti-democratic strongmen around the world (as just one example)?

Or in my insistence in calling you out on your antiquated and untrue meme that there's a "liberal media" conspiring against rightwing thought and/or action?

"Liberal media"? The mainstream media are more corporate-consolidated than at anytime in this nation's history. Where, pray-tell, does the "liberal" part of "media" fall into play here?

Or...was it because I didn't say "please"...or "thank you" in my responses?

"Intolerant"? Do you mean my intolerance toward any white supremacist attitudes...or toward any misogyny, or homophobia, or any bias or intolerance exhibited by conservatives or Republicans toward any groups or races or ethnicities that are not Caucasian (or male, or heterosexual -- whatever the case may be)?

And let me add, "Rex", how can you legitimately masquerade under a new moniker and continue to insist you're not T. Paine (or "Unknown")?

You can't even be honest about that.


"When we retaliate, we are called 'intolerant'." ~~ Dave Dubya

Agreed, Dave. What surprises con-servatives most is when progressives and liberals and others with left-of-center viewpoints respond with the same tactics they've adapted and haved used for decades.

They call our retaliation "intolerance", because they're accustomed to people on the left laying down and accepting their beatings.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
They operate from the authoritarian position of no compromise. Their way or the highway. When we call them out and demand a voice they get offended. Again, who are the delicate ones here?

They assume liberals are all passive unthinking wimps who must submit to authoritarian minority rule. They are wrong on that too.

When we criticize cruel, unwise, and unjust military/corporate/law enforcement directed government policy, they then say we "hate America". When we condemn their bigoted despotic voter suppression, we hate America.

But it's "patriotic" to call Obama a Kenyan Marxist, despite his offering to cut safety nets in an ill-conceived "grand bargain" for compromise, and his leniency for Wall Street and the Bush/Cheney war crimes.

Never mind all that.

And how DARE we suggest Trump is Putin's puppet? Never mind the facts above. Never mind his cronies and family lied about their contacts. And never mind the MAGAt hosted Russian media and spies in the Oval Office, bragging about firing Comey to shut down the investigation, while passing on top secret intelligence directly to them.

But Hillary should be shot for treason, because of an email server. And never mind Bush/Cheney lied us into war and destroyed many emails themselves. And never mind the Trump cartel is also using private accounts.

Nothing to see here. We need to just shut up and let Wall Street and corporations write our laws and regulations. Let them buy politicians. Let them dump more mercury, lead, and other poisons into our air and water.

And by all means, destroy labor bargaining rights, cut those taxes for the rich, and take away food stamps and healthcare from the poor.

This is how libs need to learn to love America, amirite?



Jefferson's Guardian said...

"This is how libs need to learn to love America, amirite?" ~~ Dave Dubya

Well of course! We're blatantly being "awful", "hateful" and "intolerant" for calling the rightwingers out on their obvious excesses!

How dare that we not know our proper place...and kneel at their feet and acquiesce to their anti-democratic rule?

How dare we?!?!

Dave Dubya said...

Just the latest evidence of far Right demonization and red baiting.

Exhibit A:

“We have a society in which there are an awful lot of people who have no idea that Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung all came to power promising the same kinds of things that Ms. Ocasio-Cortez is promising. And it led to mass murder, it led to dictatorship, it led to genocide. These promises are old promises and they invariably lead to bad things.”- Ben Stein

Exhibit B:

“All that is true, it’s absolutely true, but it’s not just Cortez. Folks, this is what the Democrat Party has become.” - Rush Limbaugh

That’s right. Public healthcare and going back to tax rates under Nixon is now "Nazi Stalinism”.

Better blame that damn liberal intolerance, amirite? Why are they so evil? They just don't seem to know their place. They need to shut up, capitulate to the Party of Trump, and get in line.

It the only solution...apart from the Right's "Final Solution" to the "liberal problem", one may imagine.

Goddamn all those fascists! Oops. More liberal intolerance. Shame on me.

Dave Dubya said...

And lest we forget, "Democrats don't care about crime". It must be true. Trump said it.

Goddamn that fascist thug and Russian agent.

Rex said...

“I hate hatred. I hate racism. I hate lies. I have no tolerance for intolerance. These are the fruits of Trump and his Party and it is a poison infecting our world. Deep down you may sense this, but do not want to admit it.”

I agree with this, but I think that most of the GOP rank and file voted for Trump because of the lies and corruption that has been the case with politicians from both sides of the spectrum for generations now. I see the hate and even some racism on the right, but that is a fringe minority of conservatism. I wish you could see and acknowledge the equal, and I would say, even greater majority of people on the left that rage in their hate and intolerance.

The authoritarian personality you so despise is unfortunately not something exclusive to the right. Obama was just as authoritarian as Trump is now. He forced a horrible health care reform on the public with bribes to senators and treachery on the behalf of Justice Roberts. Also, he insisted in no exclusions or conscience rights for those that did not wish to provide for abortions or birth control, like groups of nuns for God’s sake. This was not harmful to his plan in anyway, but he insisted that his administration fight this in violation of people’s first amendment rights.

Trump has done some foolish things. His Helsinki show was inexcusable. His unwillingness to increase sanctions on Russia is very disturbing. In light of Putin’s belligerence in the Black Sea against Ukraine, I think the U.S. should be ramping up sanctions and condemning them in the useless U.N. Trump definitely holds a lot of blame for his actions, but no less so than Hillary stealing elections from Sanders, and Obama’s anti-freedom agenda.

Despite all of this, I see no proof of collusion with Russia on Trump’s behalf currently. Now, perhaps there is some and if so, I am sure Mueller will bring this to light. However, to date, all of the indictments he has made have been process related due to perjury and such. There has been nothing regarding links of Russian influence in our elections. Russia did not think they could seriously sway our elections anyway. They simply wanted to be caught and thus be an issue to cause further disunion amongst Americans. Their plan has worked marvelously. If Trump was guilty of working with Russia in a provable manner, then I will be the first to demand his impeachment. Nonetheless, it wasn’t Russia that made me vote for Trump; it was Hillary that did.

Dave, you seem to be a sharp guy, but you are absolutely a far-left partisan. That is fine and your right; however, I would suggest that it doesn’t help your cause to give into the hate you profess to despise. Don’t let the left’s pundits or friends or family, or J.G. drag you to the raging hate-filled comments that succeeded your initial responses with me on this thread. It was almost as if J.G. flipped a switch and brought that out in you. As for J.G., he really does need consistent and continued prayers as he seems to be in a very dark place and doesn’t even recognize it.

Just the Facts! said...

"Jr. admitted how much money they got from Russia."

Got money for what? When did he get the money? Seems to me if Russia helped Trump they would have paid money by Trump to help him. How did Russia help Trump win the election? If Russia had such a big impact on the election how come their effort didn't effect CA results? How many people do you know that changed their vote from HRC to Trump due to Russian actions? How did the Russians effect the voters in PA. OH. MI. FL. and WI. but not in NY? More importantly, what evidence is there of any Russian actions costing HRC the White House.

"Is Trump's betrayal of our country and capitulation to Putin in Helsinki not a telling fact?"

How do you know what was said in the meeting? Who told you he betrayed and capitulated to Putin? Did President Trump tell Putin to be patient, he would have a lot more freedom after the election like Obama did?

Under Trump, Russians have been killed in Syria.
Trump has ordered missiles fired at Syrian military sites, openly targeting strategic operations and allies of Russia.
Under Trump sanctions imposed over Russia’s invasion of Crimea in 2014 have not been lifted.
Under Trump approved the sale of lethal weapons to Ukraine, something Barack Obama did not do.
Going against Russia's best interests, Trump has increased sanctions on Venezuela.
Sanctions were imposed on members of Russia’s elite and their business entities in April, after 13 Russians were indicted by the U.S. Department of Justice.
Following the poisoning of former KGB agent Sergei Skripal and his daughter in the U.K., the Trump administration expelled 60 Russian diplomats from the U.S.

Your case that Trump is a "Russian agent" is built on conjecture and in response or reaction to HRC losing in 2016. Which BTW is becoming the standard response of the left to losing an election, the other side must have cheated. While starting in 2000, it has continue ever election cycle since. A honest review of the 2018 elections where a liberal lost in a close race will support this historical fact.
IE: Florida & Georgia.

Dave I think your hate for President Trump (for what ever reason) is clouding your reasoning.





Jefferson's Guardian said...

"I am praying for you, buddy. (And J.G. too!)" ~~ "Rex"

Save your empty prayers, "Rex", for those who believe your false sincerity. Instead, try being truthful and honest -- if not with Dave and me, at least with yourself.

That'll be a start.

Just the Facts! said...

Dave,
Quick question, would you have voted for Democratic Michigan Rashida Tlaib if you could have?

Dave Dubya said...

Rex,
It’s interesting how the evidence I just showed of far Right demonization goes without acknowledgment. “But the left is worse!” is all you got?

If being pro-democracy, pro-voter rights, pro-reproductive rights, pro-free press, pro-Constitutional taxes, pro-Constitutional regulation of commerce, pro-Constitutional provision for the general welfare, and pro-consent of the governed is being a far-left partisan, then yes, I am indeed a far-left partisan.

I told you what I hate, and you agreed. I don’t hate Trump supporters. I hate their hate and greed and ignorance. Calling them out for that is not hate. Conservatives can be so sensitive and easily offended. They usually regard calling our racism as “playing the race card” too.

I think people voted for Trump out of ignorance, anger and fear. Some out of pure racism, like David Duke. Many feel betrayed at this point. Have you not heard him at those neo-Nuremburg rallies? Yes, Hillary is a liar and hypocrite. But she comes in a distant second to Trump. This is readily obvious.

Trump openly threatened her with jail in a debate for God’s sake! If you think Obama was more authoritarian than that, your understanding of the term is quite different from mine.

If you think Obama was just as authoritarian for wanting to expand health care, your understanding of the term is quite different from mine. If you think calling Nazis “very fine people” is less authoritarian than Obama, your understanding of the term is quite different from mine. If you think calling black NFL protestors “sons of bitches” is less authoritarian than Obama, your understanding of the term is quite different from mine. If you think Obama is more authoritarian than the man who denied he was our lawful president, your understanding of the term is quite different from mine. If you think calling our free press the “enemy of the people” is less authoritarian than Obama, your understanding of the term is quite different from mine.

How many more comparisons would you like? So Obama was a tyrant for “suppressing First Amendment rights” by supporting birth control? What a NAZI, amirite? Reproductive rights don’t matter, I’m sure. I get why nuns and some, not all, Catholics oppose contraception. But in this country their religion should not be imposed on others. What a novel concept.

“Obama’s anti-freedom agenda”. You mean his “Marxist Muslim agenda”? Or like “Obama’s coming for our guns!!” All lies. Suppressing minority voter rights is anti-freedom. Censoring the words “Global warming” and climate change” and other science is anti-freedom. Attacking our free press as the “enemy of the people” is anti-freedom. Maybe Obama’s Constitutional duty to appoint a SC Justice was anti-freedom too?

Trump has gone far to inhibit efforts to document and combat far Right terrorism. But Obama is “anti-freedom”? Come on. There is no debate, no comparison. The greater treachery was from the Right. It always is.

“Freedom” for the Right means corporations and big money run the show. “Freedom” means suppressing minority voters. “Freedom” means suppressing reproductive rights. “Freedom” means minority rule. They can’t admit it, but almost every policy they advance supports this. Trump is no different. That is con-servatism.

All decency was abandoned by Trump supporters. Period. They appeased an openly racist, white nationalist, hater and liar. He is evil by many standards. I forgive the duped and ill-informed. I once voted for a Republican too. Never again. They are corrupt and dishonest to their core.

You see no collusion. I see the Trump Tower meeting with Russians offering dirt on Hilary. I see Flynn, Manifort, Page, et al. secretly meeting with Russians and lying about it. I ask why. Do you? “Process related” is the koolade they are offering. They are crimes intended to cover up their other crimes. If perjury is a “process crime” then you have no problem with Bill Clinton, right?

Dave Dubya said...

JTF,

Don’t twist my words.

As I said, I hate hatred. I hate racism. I hate lies. I have no tolerance for intolerance. These are the fruits of Trump and his Party and it is a poison infecting our world. Your hate has been very clear all along.

You needed to seek some facts. Good for you. They make a very weak case. Here are some relevant facts you need to ignore:

Why does Trump keep his meetings with Putin secret? We do know what he said at Putin’s side in Helsinki.

Do you know what he said with Putin? Can’t admit it can you? So far just crickets from Putin’s Junior puppets.

More facts:

Trump praised Putin and attacked Obama in the same paragraph. Just like a Russian agent would do.

Russia meddled in the election and Putin favored Trump.

Trump wants to pull out of Syria. Putin likes that idea. So a few mercenaries were killed. Putin’s puppet complied with Putin and Erdogan.

The US Treasury Department announced yesterday (Jan. 27) that it had ended sanctions on three companies controlled by Russian oligarch Oleg Deripaska, a close ally of president Vladimir Putin. Sanctions on Russian energy giant EuroSibEnergo, aluminum producer UC Rusal, and Rusal’s parent company, En+ Group, were lifted after just 10 months, despite strong objections from members of both parties in Congress.

“He said he (Putin) didn’t meddle. He said he didn’t meddle. I asked him again. You can only ask so many times,” Trump told reporters aboard Air Force One.
“Every time he sees me, he says, ‘I didn’t do that,’ Trump added. “And I believe — I really believe that when he tells me that, he means it.”
Sanctions were imposed over Crimea annexation were under Obama, not Trump.

The State Department says that a number of Russian diplomats expelled from a Russian consulate in Washington state could be replaced by other Russian officials, noting that the same is true for a number of American officials recently expelled from a consulate in St. Petersberg.

Bolten and Big Oil want Trump to take Venezuela’s oil. They are seizing their profits already. “Takers”. Vlad may tell him to back off. But for now it is a distraction from all his cronies getting arrested for lying to congress and the FBI about their relationship with....RUSSIANS.

“Russia, if you’re listening...”

I would never vote for a Republican. It would be validating the Party of Trump. They are the enemies of journalism, our free press, public education, public healthcare, science, democracy and decency.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
Our thoughts and prayers should be for them to embrace sanity, compassion, and truth.

Futile as they may be...

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"Dave, you seem to be a sharp guy, but you are absolutely a far-left partisan." ~~ "Rex"

"Rex", you'll have to define "far-left partisan".

You've made another unsubstantiated and opinionated claim that's relative at best.


"Don’t let...J.G. drag you to the raging hate-filled comments that succeeded your initial responses with me on this thread." ~~ "Rex"

The inference being that my own reply addressed to you (at 6:30 AM MST) was interpreted as "hateful"?

My, my, Rex -- overly reactive to the truth, I see.

Your response only reinforces the premise made by both Dave and me that you live in an alternate universe where lies are truth, and evil is goodness.


"As for J.G., he really does need consistent and continued prayers as he seems to be in a very dark place and doesn’t even recognize it." ~~ "Rex"

I'll agree with you, Rex, that I'm currently existing "in a very dark place" -- that being the evil and inhumane world created from almost 40 years of corporatist rule, and exacerbated by Trumpism and its racist adherents.

So you're dead-wrong in exclaiming I don't recognize it, and then again in projecting your own insecurities and fear of the unknown that somehow prayers are the answer to solving human-created problems.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Vern, just a quick question...would you have voted for NSDAP candidate, Adolf Hitler, if you could have?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"If being pro-democracy, pro-voter rights, pro-reproductive rights, pro-free press, pro-Constitutional taxes, pro-Constitutional regulation of commerce, pro-Constitutional provision for the general welfare, and pro-consent of the governed is being a far-left partisan, then yes, I am indeed a far-left partisan." ~~ Dave Dubya

By that definition, Dave, that makes me a far-left partisan also.

I still wonder what Mr. Paine's definition of "far-left partisan" means. (Oh, excuse me, he wants to go by "Rex" these days. As I mentioned earlier, he can't even be straightforward about this. Straight out of the Trump playbook...)

U.P. Tim said...

Just the facts(Vern), I would have voted for Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, in a heartbeat if I had the chance. She is awesome and speaks the truth. I loved her comments of "Impeach the mother f**ker". It needed to be said. Here in the 1st District of Michigan we have a carpet bagging Republicon from Louisiana. He does not represent true U.P. values and is just another corporate shill funded by a lot of Devos family money, the NRA and big telecom.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, this thread has been very emblematic of the title of your post: Post-truth Con-servatism.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,

They won't even accept my generous offer of a template to dispute my points.

Still no evidence was offered to prove the error of my ways.

I'll try again:

“Dave, I have to say you are wrong in stating (_____) and claiming (_______). These facts (_____) and (____) suggest you are mistaken.”

~~~

OK. Maybe we need a tutorial.

Here's a sample of this "fact as evidence" concept to support a position.

Stated position:

"We understand the propaganda system based on lies, blame, false accusations, bigotry, racism, and fear-mongering has been their tool for gaining that power...And most of all they are programmed to deny, demean, deflect, and distort what democrats, liberals or progressives say...We’ve seen it all over their media and in corporate media appeasers. “Brown invaders are coming to join the 'Democrat Party' to spread communism!” and "Libtards hate America and want us to be another Venezuela!"

Evidence offered to support stated position:

Exhibit A:

“We have a society in which there are an awful lot of people who have no idea that Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung all came to power promising the same kinds of things that Ms. Ocasio-Cortez is promising. And it led to mass murder, it led to dictatorship, it led to genocide. These promises are old promises and they invariably lead to bad things.”- Ben Stein

Exhibit B:

“All that is true, it’s absolutely true, but it’s not just Cortez. Folks, this is what the Democrat Party has become.” - Rush Limbaugh

~~~~

As far as I can tell, to their delicate sensibilities, even this demonstration of the use of documented fact as evidence tells them, "Liberals are very hateful Nazi/commies".

Yup. It's always their conclusion. Their leaders say so and they never, never dispute it.

That seems to be what we are dealing with. They can't comprehend that we don't hate someone for being in what is essentially a cult.* We pity them and encourage free thought. You know, far Left partisan stuff.

==

* "We're in a strange place. It's becoming a cultish thing, isn't it?" the Tennessee Republican told reporters. "It's not a good place for any party to have a cult-like situation as it relates to a President that happens to be purportedly of the same party."- Senate Foreign Relations Chairman Bob Corker

“Just remember, what you are seeing and what you are reading is not what's happening.” - MAGAt Cult Leader

"I do it to discredit and demean you all, (News media) so when you write negative stories about me no one will believe you." – MAGAt Cult Leader

“Truth isn’t the truth...Truth is relative. They may have a different version of the truth than we do." - Rudy Giuliani

Does anyone else need more fact-based evidence of post-truth con-servatism?

Anyone?

Bueller?

Bueller?

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"Anyone? Bueller? Bueller?"

LOLOL

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Just the facts (Vern), I would have voted for Rashida Tlaib of Michigan, in a heartbeat if I had the chance." ~~ U.P. Tim

Tim, if she had run in my district, I would have voted for her also.

Unfortunately, I too am saddled with a Republican corporate shill.

Dave Dubya said...

Vern wanted to ask if we'd vote for Rashida so he could then post his Breitbart CRAP about her being "anti-Semitic". One of her supporters "promoted conspiracy theories" about Israel and Jews. They love to play the "guilt by association card".

Never mind Trump's old buddy Roger Stone is a big supporter of the hate group the Proud Boys. Proud Boys count Stone as one of their own. The group posted a video last February showing Stone completing what has been described by the group as a low-level initiation. “Hi, I’m Roger Stone. I’m a Western chauvinist. I refuse to apologize for creating the modern world.”

You know alleged perjurer Stone, right? He's the sweet guy also famous in a video saying, "Oh my god I’m busted drinking Russian vodka! Mueller… arrest me, libtards.”

Well, if you say so, Proud Boy.

Just don't call them racists or white nationalists.

Cons really love to accuse liberals of hating Israel and being anti-Semitic for opposing the authoritarian Israeli Likud Party line.

And instead of thanking anyone for their response to his question, JTF went on to ask three more off topic questions.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"...instead of thanking anyone for their response to his question, JTF went on to ask three more off topic questions." ~~ Dave Dubya

Typical...that's par for the course.

The old boy must suffer from an acute form of ADHD. Focus has never been his forte. ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Exhibit A:

We have a society in which there are an awful lot of people who have no idea that Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung all came to power promising the same kinds of things that Ms. Ocasio-Cortez is promising. And it led to mass murder, it led to dictatorship, it led to genocide. These promises are old promises and they invariably lead to bad things.”- Ben Stein


"You might have seen the clip floating around social media. It’s a panel discussion from the World Economic Forum at Davos, in which Michael Dell, the billionaire CEO responds to a question about a 70% marginal tax rate on the wealthiest Americans, a proposal recently floated by US representative Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez.

'No, I’m not supportive of that,' Dell says, to much laughter from the assembled plutocrats. 'And I don’t think it will help the growth of the US economy. Name a country where that’s worked.'

At which point his co-panellist, MIT professor Erik Brynjolfsson, chimes in: 'The United States.'
" ~~ Jeff Sparrow, "Alexandria Acasio-Cortez Knows Yesterday's Radicalism Can Become Tomorrow's Common Sense", The Guardian, January 28, 2019

Hmm, I wonder what countries Ben Stein was referring to in his audacious and simplistic claim that 70% marginal tax rates led to "mass murder", "dictatorships" and genocide?

Oh!...possibly he was referring to the war atrocities committed by the U.S. government's military in Viet Nam and Cambodia in the 1960s?

The United States tax code included 70% marginal tax rates then. Do you think that may be what he meant?

Help, please, I'm stuck on this. ;-)

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
I can't help you on that.

I'm just a dumb old progressive, far left partisan supporter of education, a free press, and science, who stubbornly remains pro-democracy, pro-voter rights, pro-reproductive rights, pro-Constitutional taxes, pro-Constitutional regulation of commerce, pro-Constitutional provision for the general welfare, and pro-consent of the governed.

How anti-American is that??

I just know killing all them commie women and children working in rice paddies made America great, while anti-American commie hippie cowards protested. We understand important people like Bush Jr, Cheney, and Ted Nugent had "other priorities", so it was OK for them not to go to Vietnam.

Every con-servative knows an MIT professor is just another commie. Every con-servative also knows only con-servatives truly understand history and the Constitution.

And that's all they need to know.

We need to accept their con-servative ideology that education, science, and journalism are all liberal conspiracies. 'Cause of them things called "facts" they keep using that contradict con-servative beliefs.

Obviously they all hate America and want Stalin and Hitler to make us like Venezuela.

Just the Facts! said...

"The Democratic Party explicitly casts itself as an inheritor of Marxism. The Democrats’ demands are an almost total inversion of the Constitutional arrangements and traditional American values. The economic redistribution, open borders, repeal of the Second Amendment, the abolition of the Electoral College, the election of a president by popular vote, voting rights and free health care to illegal aliens are just part of the comprehensive strategy of putting the harness of socialism around the necks of the American people. The driving force of the Democratic Party is economic “inequality”, the argument socialists have never tired of invoking since the dawn of capitalism. The mantra brought into play by the French Revolution - “War to the palace, peace to the cottage” - is alive and well today in the Democratic Party."

http://www.diogenesmiddlefinger.com/

Dave Dubya said...

^^^^

...Like I was saying. HE gets it! ;-)

Dave Dubya said...

I eagerly await Rex to inform us how Trump loyalist JTF's regurgitated propaganda is correct, and how I am mistaken. I mean besides, FEELING and BELIEVING that I am wrong.

Among all the hate and lies of JTF's copy and paste, this is key:

The mantra brought into play by the French Revolution - “War to the palace, peace to the cottage” - is alive and well today in the Democratic Party."

In other words, "Let them eat cake".

Neo-aristocracy is really their preference. Rule by the economic elites is the foundation of their ideology. Democracy must be suppressed. Otherwise communism will oppress the poor victimized aristocratic rich.

A neo-feudal system of masters and servants, lords and serfs, is what they crave. It is the authoritarian way. What else explains the Right's war on voting rights, while allowing corporate interests to write laws and regulations?

AOC Derangement Syndrome has arrived. They are frightened and furious...as usual.

Rex said...

“It’s interesting how the evidence I just showed of far Right demonization goes without acknowledgment.”

Really? You must have missed the part where I agreed with you on Trump’s crap with Helsinki, and sanctions, and what have you. I notice you never acknowledge any wrong doing from leftist partisans though. Any criticism you have of them is simply because they are not far left enough.

As far as hating the “hate and ignorance” of Trump supporters, you are aware of the millions of people of color that also voted for Trump too, right?

Oh, and Obama was a tyrant for violating CONSTITUTIONAL rights to freedom of religion and the exercise thereof in order to champion his socialistic and failed medical program while using the benign sounding “birth control” excuse as his cover. Further nobody was imposing Catholicism or any other faith on anybody. That is your unsupported opinion without basis in fact. They simply wanted at least a conscientious objection not to have to fund birth control or abortion-causing drugs. I know this seems inconsequential in today’s climate of hate, but life still matters to millions of Americans.

Obama further worked against allies such as Saudi Arabia and Israel to pump up the terrorist regime in Iran with a horrific deal complete with pallet loads of money shipped to them. Between quantitative easing from the Feds and gross expenditures on “shovel ready jobs” that were non-existent (except to buddies at Solyndra), Obama proved that he was just another corrupt politician working hard to redistribute wealth so that everyone was equal. I will take Obama’s word that he isn’t a Muslim, but he is absolutely a socialist.

The Russians offered dirt on Hillary? Look at the grotesque mismanagement of the billions in missing State Department funds not to mention the millions in contributions to the now defunct Clinton foundation by foreign nationals (including Russians) for getting “nothing” in return. Surely your jaded cynicism hasn’t made you that na├»ve towards her too?
“We have a society in which there are an awful lot of people who have no idea that Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung all came to power promising the same kinds of things that Ms. Ocasio-Cortez is promising. And it led to mass murder, it led to dictatorship, it led to genocide. These promises are old promises and they invariably lead to bad things.”- Ben Stein

Did Stalin, Hitler, and Mao all come to power promising prosperity for the working people? Yes. Hitler even delivered such prosperity for a little while. It wasn’t sustainable. In all three examples, millions of people were killed by each dictator in the furtherance of their plans. A 70% tax rate in and of itself is not going to cause genocidal dictators; however, when you want “free” medical care, “free” college education, $15 minimum wages, and punishment for anyone that disagrees with your views on race, homosexuality, gender, politics and so forth, that is where we start wading into dangerous waters. When you pit the so-called have-nots against the haves, that is when dictators rise to provide for the so-called have nots, sometimes with the possessions and even lives of the so-called haves. So, with your knee-jerk reaction aside, how is Mr. Stein wrong in his statement? Please tell me where he is wrong in what he said?

Rex said...

“I'm just a dumb old progressive, far left partisan supporter of education, a free press, and science, who stubbornly remains pro-democracy, pro-voter rights, pro-reproductive rights, pro-Constitutional taxes, pro-Constitutional regulation of commerce, pro-Constitutional provision for the general welfare, and pro-consent of the governed.”

I support many of the things you labeled above, Dave, but our understanding of what that means is the cause of our disagreements. I support true education where facts and not propaganda are taught. We spend more money on education now then ever before, and yet our children don’t know basic history, or math, or even how to write a grammatically correct sentence. Further, when we try to offer school vouchers so that parents have a choice to send their kids to better schools, the NEA and the left scream about taking money away from public education. How about we make sure that ALL public teachers are knowledgeable about the subjects they teach and hold them accountable? That might be a good starting place instead of looking at them as a PAC.

I strongly support a free press that reports who, what, when, where, and even the why if it is based on the facts in evidence. When CNN is tipped off by the Mueller team (something they were angered about but did not deny when repeatedly asked) that there is going to be a raid with nearly two dozen agents against Stone in the middle of the night so they can be there to provide anti-Trump coverage of to-date non-evidentiary charge of Russian collusion that smacks of a partisan and big government press. Why have armored vehicles there and even a helicopter to arrest Stone, who was home sleeping? He was later released on bail on his own recognizance. Yeah, big threat! That tells me the entire production was for the “free” press to show us more about evil Trump. It was a mis-use of power by the seemingly unaccountable and politically-driven Mueller team.

Science? Yep, real science instead of pop-science and agenda driven propaganda should always be taught, researched, and supported.

Pro-democracy and pro-voter rights? It would be anti-American to not agree with this. That said, purging non-citizens from voter rolls and requiring proof of citizenship before voting SUPPORTS democracy and protects voter rights. True measures of suppression should be immediately pointed out and punished severely. I think we can agree on that. Texas recently discovered 95,000 non-citizens potentially registered to vote, however. Verifying, removing where warranted, and punishing transgressors is not racist or anything else other than being pro-democracy American.

Pro-reproductive rights? Yep, which is code for abortion on demand and without apology. We are promised the INALIENABLE rights to LIFE, liberty and pursuit of happiness. I guess that is, if we can escape the womb first. The disdain for human life in the unborn from many of the left is ghoulish in their pursuit of “choice”.

Rex said...

Regulation of commerce? Well, it is actually regulation of INTERSTATE commerce that the constitution provides for, but that creeping sense of big government does tend to get in the way, doesn’t it? It was meant to prevent one state from abusing another state in trade matters.

General welfare? Yep, the constitution provides for this too, WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY LISTED AS RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT. In other words, if it falls outside of what is listed as a governmental responsibility in the constitution, then the federal government must NOT be involved. Those duties fall to the states or the people as per that same constitution. This is one of the big differences between left and right. Right simply wants government to be as non-intrusive into their lives as possible and leave them alone. The left looks to government for all of their wants and needs and expects the government to provide, usually by demonizing the producers in the country.

Pro-consent of the governed? Yeah, but let’s do away with the electoral college. In that way we can be the United States of California and New York. The consent of the rubes and hicks in fly-over country is not required.

We agree on the labels, Dave, but not always on their meaning. I suppose it is good that there is some common ground there though.

Rex said...

Let them eat cake? Ummm… that was supposedly attributed to Marie Antoinette. You know, the rich wife of King Louis?

Thanks for reading my mind and telling me what I want as a conservative. I don't want corporations ruling my life anymore than I want government to do so. I want corporations to provide products and services I need in a responsive manner. No more... no less. Come to think of it, I want government to provide services as per the CONSTITUTION ONLY. No more... no less...

This neo-aristocracy you have created as your boogey man that we all want on the right is laughable, Dave.

It is ironic that you think this is something we want, and yet you want to create a society based on socialism. You know, where everyone is equal in their misery, except of course, those running the system. These feudal lords, as history has shown, will tells us what we need and can have... including which rights and freedoms.

AOC is a harmless idiot by herself. What is truly dangerous is the thousands of ignorant people that elected her to a federal government, whose three branches this "economics" major could not even name. That is okay, though, because those voters probably could not do so either. She, and her supporters should probably stick to dancing.

Just the Facts! said...

In a sensible world, we would be basking in this period of unprecedented prosperity and peace.

The country should be unified and full of bonhomie. The whole world has advanced to inconceivable levels of global peace and prosperity. Life is easier, healthier, and more comfortable for more people than ever before in history.

Socialism and Communism—those tragic sisters from the 1800s that led to the greatest human suffering, poverty, and mass starvation in human history—should barely be remembered.

Instead, they are ascendant in the Democrat Party. Cultural Marxism and socialism are the new Democrat chic.

The exaggerated, weird loathing of President Trump and all Republicans—that flies in the face of our peace and prosperity—is the daily work of thousands of professional leftists. #TheResistance is their dream come true, as in Barack Obama’s Dreams from My Father.

Their plan has long been public. As Saul Alinsky taught Obama, “[An] organizer must shake up the prevailing patterns of their lives—agitate, create disenchantment and discontent with the current values, to produce, if not a passion for change, at least a passive, affirmative, non-challenging climate. [You must] fan the embers of hopelessness into a flame of fight.”

The tactics of the Trump #Resistance were developed decades ago by Leninists Richard Cloward and Frances Fox Piven along with Alinksy. They were taught by Barack Obama as both a community organizer and a University of Chicago lecturer. There’s a photo of Obama standing before a blackboard teaching Alinsky. Obama never taught constitutional law—he taught three courses on “race, rights and gender,” exploring the legal basis for reparations, the history of lynching and the failure of the Bill of Rights to redistribute wealth.

Today, the American Left is empowered with unprecedented funding. Soros is only one among a number of radical billionaires, from the Green promoter Tom Steyer, to the Pritzkers of Chicago (Hyatt Hotel heirs), who launched Obama’s U.S. Senate run. One of the Pritzkers is transsexual and a Democrat mega-donor. ActBlue raised well over $1 billion dollars for Democrats in 2018.

Conservative groups aren’t even playing the same game. The Koch brothers don’t make the list of top 50 “heavy hitters’”political donors in the country, compiled by the Center for Responsive Politics—only two out of the top 20 give to Republicans. David Horowitz and Jacob Laksin in their book The New Leviathan, count 122 leftist foundations worth $104 billion. Conservative political groups? Eighty-six in the whole country, worth a measly $10 billion.

Radicalized progressive groups also get federal funding not given to conservative groups, under the guise of being apolitical nonprofits for health care, poverty programs, the environment and even for helping illegal aliens.

Trump could shave his head and stop tweeting tomorrow, stop counterpunching, start acting like the milquetoast Romney and it would make not an ounce of difference.

Karin McQuillan|
January 29th, 2019

Rex said...

For your perusal and consideration regarding Tlaib's anti-Semitism.

https://www.theblaze.com/news/rashida-tlaib-ties-to-anti-semitism

Dave Dubya said...

Rex,

Yes, The Blaze is so un-biased.

Been there, done that. You are falsely accusing Tlaib of anti-Semitism by guilt by association. Do you understand logical fallacies?

See my response at Jan 29, 9:29 pm.


Rex said...

Dave, there are no such things as un-biased sources these days. Either it is right or left. True unbiased journalism is just about dead. The problem is that any source that doesn't support the left is deemed "biased" by leftists.

Regardless, didn't you accuse Trump of being a racist because David Duke supported him? That claim is far less tenable than Tlaib's close affiliation here. Trump denounced Duke. Tlaib has not denounced her affiliation. Indeed, she supports BDS and wants no money to go to Israeli defense.


So are you ignoring my other comments in rebuttal to yours?

Dave Dubya said...

Grab a drink, this may take a while.

Part One:

Rex,
Thank you for your thoughtful response. I happen to disagree with most of your opinions. Facts were few and far between.

..."our understanding of what that means is the cause of our disagreements"

Yes, indeed, as exemplified by our understanding of authoritarian personalities and behavior. The Trump/Obama comparison. Revisit that for contrast, if you please.

”I support true education where facts and not propaganda are taught.” ...As do I. Profit seeking corporate schools and religious schools have inherent bias, but that’s another discussion.

Of course, only the Right’s idea of “true education and facts” counts. Can’t trust those teachers. What do they know? They’re all commies, right?

”How about we make sure that ALL public teachers are knowledgeable about the subjects they teach and hold them accountable?”

But not for private schools that must only meet corporate and church standards? Knowledgeable teachers is a good idea. But is this entirely up to conservatives to dictate? I’m all for standards for teachers. Post-truth conservatives are the last ones who should dictate our educational standards.

”... real science instead of pop-science and agenda driven propaganda should always be taught”. Yes, but again, is this entirely up to conservatives to dictate? It’s always their way or the highway.

Yes education, like all institutions, needs improvement. Entrusting it to profit seeking corporations and churches isn’t the path away from bias.

”...yet our children don’t know basic history, or math, or even how to write a grammatically correct sentence.”

These are the people who gravitate into Trump’s base. “I love the under-educated”. Need I say more?

”... the NEA and the left scream about taking money away from public education”

Um, because it is a “true fact”? Public cost for private profit is how our con-servative kleptocracy operates.

Dave Dubya said...

Part Two:

So, a “partisan press” bothers you? But not FOX(R) for some reason. They are Trump’s second cabinet, but IOKIYAR.

How is reporting the arrest of criminal Trump cronies NOT reporting “who, what, when, where, and even the why”?

Once again, you fail to provide factual error on their part. Not being on the Right like FOX(R) doesn’t automatically mean a liberal bias. That might be a new concept for some of you.

Are you equally appalled by armed law enforcement busting in on peaceful non-violent cannabis growers? How about the shootings and choking of unarmed black men?

BTW, did you know Stone had taken the initiation oath of the violent group of thugs called the Proud Boys? Better safe than sorry in executing that warrant. Of course, in your view Stone is the victim of a witch hunt, no matter what facts are there.

”True measures of (voter) suppression should be immediately pointed out and punished severely.”

Yet the Republicans continue their suppression, even after courts noted the racial bias in their suppression. You want to punish them? Don’t keep voting for them.

As long as you’re harping on illegal voting by non-citizens, show us where any liberal or democrat has advocated it. You are sticking to the same old pattern of fact-free opinion.

”Pro-reproductive rights?”

Yes. Birth control is included. Some religions call it murder. Human life is legally measured from birth to death. A zygote is an undeveloped potential person. We cannot allow religious views of a minority to dictate otherwise. Keep your faith to yourself. It is what the founders wanted. I never advocate abortion. But I will not dictate a woman’s needs and conditions require submission to your religious beliefs.

Um, “interstate” is not in the Constitution. Not even “between the states”. Just a couple facts. “Among the states” is interstate and intrastate commerce.

”It was meant to prevent one state from abusing another state in trade matters”

That, sir, is an opinion. States do not engage in commerce among themselves. Commercial interests like banks and corporations do. The founders knew this.

”The left looks to government for all of their wants and needs and expects the government to provide, usually by demonizing the producers in the country.”

This is more dogmatic opinion with no factual evidence to support it. Here are some more facts: Labor happens to produce most of what our country produces, and labor rights and unions are under attack by the Right. Is that complicated?

Dave Dubya said...

Part Three:

“General welfare? ...the constitution provides for this too, WITHIN THE BOUNDS OF WHAT IS SPECIFICALLY LISTED AS RESPONSIBILITIES AND DUTIES OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT.”

So the Center For Disease Control is un-Constitutional? Is the Air Force in the Constitution? Better shut it down. Oh, wait. They ARE for our “common defence and general welfare”. Just like taxes and regulation of commerce. Times change. This is why those taxes, regulations and provisions are NOT specified. But there they are, anyway. Opinions vary, of course. This is why we need compromise between interests, not dominance by the Right.

Pro-consent of the governed? Yeah, that must mean minority rule, unfair elections, and more representative power from rubes and hicks. Otherwise, communism. They already have that imbalance of power in the Senate, in case you missed that. Everyone knows Californians are not equal to rural state farmers. That would be like encouraging Black people to vote.

”We agree on the labels, Dave, but not always on their meaning.”

This is absolutely correct. In fairness, political correctness on the Left often drifts astray of reason. But the Right has its own political correctness in their dogma. As I’ve noted frequently, the Right seizes unilateral authority to define words, as well as people. Takers, Death tax, producers, commies, etc., Even “America-hating” liberals, leftists and progressives get new definitions over time. See Limbaugh’s demonization for example.

“It’s interesting how the evidence I just showed of far Right demonization goes without acknowledgment.” ”Really?”

Really. Again, Limbaugh’s words are in plain sight. Please pay attention.

”I notice you never acknowledge any wrong doing from leftist partisans though.”

Antifa, right? No example was given, so I’m guessing. Facts, please. If you were a regular reader, you would know I have always condemned violence, other than for self-defense.

Careful of those emotion based false accusations.

I don’t recall saying Trump-voting people of color can’t be ignorant. Or just greedy. There is a reason Trump’s racist birtherism and white nationalist sympathies drew little support, though.

” Obama was a tyrant for violating CONSTITUTIONAL rights to freedom of religion... nobody was imposing Catholicism or any other faith on anybody... a conscientious objection not to have to fund birth control or abortion-causing drugs”

Um, yeah, it WAS Catholics and fundamentalists who got bent out of shape against insurers, not Catholics directly or specifically, funding birth control.

Life matters to all of us. Even Muslims, Blacks, and gays.

Your definition of “Tyranny” is quite broad. Does it include jailing toddlers, too? No?

Dave Dubya said...

Part Four:

”Obama further worked against allies such as Saudi Arabia and Israel to pump up the terrorist regime in Iran with a horrific deal complete with pallet loads of money shipped to them.”

A “horrific deal”, internationally supported, with inspections, was rejected by Trump. He was so much wiser and informed, of course.

This is more opinion of course. “Allies” like Saudi Arabia gave birth to bin-Laden and al-Qaeda, so nuance isn’t your forte. Oh, and that money was Iran’s in the first place. Just some more things called “facts”.

Are you still angry at the “tyranny” of Obama’s post-Bush Great Recession Stimulus? As I recall, several Republican governors were grateful for that. My road was shovel ready and repaired by that money. So, facts, again. More general welfare. Ugh!!

All politicians rise to power promising prosperity. Trump. Stalin, Hitler, and Mao all came to power promising to make The Soviet Union, Germany and China “great again”. It wasn’t by offering regulation of corporations and public healthcare. And is certainly was not a promise of more democracy and representation. But don’t let these facts distract you.

But then again, to your thinking, public healthcare and regulation of commerce amount to “tyranny”.

It is interesting how you needed to conflate “punishment for anyone that disagrees” with public healthcare, education and minimum wage. That’s what your position needs for support?

What about under-regulated capitalism and permanent war and suppression of democracy? What about post-truth politics? Hmm.

Hmm.

”When you pit the so-called have-nots against the haves, that is when dictators rise...”

Perhaps sometimes. Hitler coddled and wooed his military industrial complex and pitted ethnic Germans against Jews and Communists. This proved he was far more a nationalist than socialist. He didn’t rise from promises of public education, democracy and healthcare. Stalin and Mao used the Marxist class-struggle technique. But NONE of them were pro-democracy. You do understand that, right?

“how is Mr. Stein wrong in his statement?

“We have a society in which there are an awful lot of people who have no idea that Stalin, Hitler, Mao Tse-Tung all came to power promising the same kinds of things that Ms. Ocasio-Cortez is promising. And it led to mass murder, it led to dictatorship, it led to genocide. These promises are old promises and they invariably lead to bad things.”- Ben Stein

This is propaganda. Stein is essentially saying liberals are commies or Nazis. Same old BS. Stein is ignoring that little “democracy” thing. AOC is not demanding the demise of the Constitution. In fact, she took an oath to defend it. Stalin, Hitler and Mao rose to power by lies, propaganda and brute force, not promises to work for public healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, public education, voter rights, and democracy.

This is classic fear-mongering and demonization. You see red-baiting as “truth”, because you want to see it that way. It is propaganda, you know.

In fact, there is NO link between public healthcare, higher taxes on the rich, public education, voter rights, and democracy to a communist dictatorship. None. Only in the fevered fear-addled minds of the far Right.

Your problem boils down to this. “Providing for the general welfare” is a socialistic concept from the founders. It is not advocating a communist dictatorship.

Why is this not clear? Because Limbaugh and Stein do not want it clear. They are propagandists for the Right. It is their agenda.

Dave Dubya said...

Part Five:

”Let them eat cake? Ummm… that was supposedly attributed to Marie Antoinette. You know, the rich wife of King Louis?”

Yes the French Revolution was invoked. I have noted how cons think they know history better than the rest of us.

”I don't want corporations ruling my life anymore than I want government to do so.

Corporations with power over government become the rulers.

I want corporations to provide products and services I need in a responsive manner. No more... no less.”

And I don’t want to give them power to write our laws, with impunity to pollute our air, land and water. In a responsible manner. Who’s gonna enforce that? Corporations? Trump?

”Come to think of it, I want government to provide services as per the CONSTITUTION ONLY. No more... no less...”

Me too. Take your complaint to the Supreme Court.

This neo-aristocracy you have created as your boogey man that we all want on the right is laughable, Dave.”

YOU put the ignorant racist billionaire in office. It is a fact Republicans submit, and pass, legislation directly from corporate lawyers.

”It is ironic that you think this is something we want..”

I don’t “think”, I know. YOU vote for the party that passes corporate written legislation. If you don't know this, you are a low-information voter.

”AOC is a harmless idiot by herself. What is truly dangerous is the thousands of ignorant people that elected her to a federal government, whose three branches this "economics" major could not even name.”

Yeah, right. And Obama didn’t know there were 50 states. Word slips are only OKIYAR. Double standards galore.

Dave Dubya said...

JTF,
You didn't even have the decency to post the ending of that "Liberals are commies" paranoid hate piece.

You know who else framed their opponents as commies? Nazis.

Your Mini Mein Kampf concludes:

"They are not well-meaning liberals. They are dangerous. The target is not Trump. They are out to get all of us."

Woooo, wooo! Evil commie libs are out to get all you "Real Americans".

This is the patented far Right "Victim card".

Post-fact ignorance, false accusations, blame, and hate.

This is your last article dump.

Try thinking for yourself. Betcha can't.






Dave Dubya said...

Rex,
"there are no such things as un-biased sources these days. Either it is right or left."

Either it is true or it isn't. A biased liberal who says we breath air is more correct than a biased conservative who says we breath water.

Bias is unavoidable. We see things from our perspective. That is not the issue. FACTUAL accuracy is. Even FOX(R) is right twice a day.

Now if you please, show me where Obama called Rachel Maddow for talking points and hired MSNBC liberals for official positions. Or how about his daughter as an adviser?

False equivalence is another of those logical fallacies you don't seem to understand.

"Regardless, didn't you accuse Trump of being a racist because David Duke supported him? That claim is far less tenable than Tlaib's close affiliation here."

No. I accused him of being a racist by his birtherism and bigotry. And his praise of Nazis as "very fine people" in Charlottesville.

"Trump denounced Duke."

Only after numerous demands and public pressure, after he vehemently denied knowing who he was! A lie.

"Tlaib has not denounced her affiliation. Indeed, she supports BDS and wants no money to go to Israeli defense."

Support for BDS is free speech. Just like it was when supporting boycotts against South Africa's apartheid regime. Why do you hate free speech? ;-)

You see what you want to see. If we oppose our weapons going to Saudis, are we "anti-Arab"?

"So are you ignoring my other comments in rebuttal to yours?"

Please explain.

Just the Facts! said...

sieg heil Dave, how's for an original post, coward.

Dave Dubya said...

Rex,
So you don't take it too personally, my general characterizations of con-servatives comprise a spectrum between you and JTF. It is understood no two humans think and believe identically. There are differences among you.

He's a true believer Trump fanatic. You can at least disagree with Trump, and admit to some of his evil.

Where you agree is on the "liberals are commies", "abortion is murder", and "build the wall" mentality of your ideology.

Kudos to your ability to rise to civility. As for the old man in a MAGA hat yelling at clouds...He kinda speaks for himself back there.

He is white nationalist to the core.



Jefferson's Guardian said...

An "original post"? Do you think Dave copies & pastes his articles?...like you do with every comment?

Do you have even one original thought you're able to express?

I honestly don't think you're capable.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"They are not well-meaning liberals. They are dangerous. The target is not Trump. They are out to get all of us." ~~ Majormajor (aka Timothy L. Trueblood V, and Vern)

LOLOL

Vern, you're so amazingly paranoid. I mean really, man, is it even humanly possible to be so fucking fearful of your fellow Americans?

Why not just blow your brains out now? It'll save all the evil commie libs the trouble when they come to get you! LOLOL

You deserve Donald Trump. You're both idiots.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave, I'm afraid they're not following your template for logical discourse and debate.

This may provide a hint as to why the rule of law, and the procedures inherent in its formulation and precedent are ignored at best, and attacked as fraudulent and equalized as another form of "fake news" in most cases.

Sadly, your tutorial was ignored also.

As previously said, Post-truth Con-servatism as the title of your post exemplifies perfectly your two resident trolls' repeated attempts to turn truth and reality inside out and on its head.

It's the usual drill with them: throw out exaggerated opinions and overblown rightwing memes, and see which ones stick.

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
I wouldn't call Rex a troll. He is welcome and makes an attempt to communicate, albeit in a limited dogmatic way. Vern is the definition of a troll, but his trolling, ignorance and rage are perfect evidence supporting my points.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

I respectfully disagree, Dave.

The fact that "Rex" has been disingenuous and untruthful in posing as someone other than T. Paine (or "Unknown"), and claiming not to be either, places him in the unscrupulous category of Chuck Morre, Just the Facts!, Majormajor, ArchieBunkerNYC, Michael Stivic, and who knows how many others?

A troll by any other name, is still a troll. ;-)

Dave Dubya said...

JG,
Disingenuous and untruthful as Rex may be expected to be, he backed off from his original personal attacks. His ally, on the other hand...His "sieg heil" comment was just a sample of the stream of hate he's been spewing. His demands for answers to off topic questions are numerous. A "true troll" if there ever was one. I had to close the front door to him.

While he's not allowed in the house, he HAS been taken to the woodshed.

But in this case, special dispensation is allowed for their trolling and disingenuous untruthfulness. I think it is possible Rex is TP's alter-ego, but more likely his brother or other close acquaintance. He got quite personal right out of the gate.

No matter the speaker, their words are what we need for our case study.

I thank them for their support, intended or not. ;-)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

"I think it is possible Rex is TP's alter-ego, but more likely his brother or other close acquaintance."

It's possible, I guess, but the writing styles are curiously similar -- and long-winded, less much legitimate content.

It would have to be someone collaborating, and providing or receiving assistance -- someone very close.

Maybe Carrie?...the Israeli "expert"? ;-)

Regardless, "he" desires to deceive. Very conservative behavior -- however one chooses to interpret it.

Very Roger Stone-ish...

Dave Dubya said...

JG,

As I noted, it is understood no two humans think and believe identically. But there are those who do think and believe in a lockstep, post-truth ideology.

Yes, the deceived can certainly wittingly, or unwittingly, deceive.