Tuesday, January 29, 2013

Mini-Rants



Election rigging, Diebold (R), voter registration restrictions, limiting hours and access to polls, cutting early voting, voter roll purging, gerrymandering to the point the Republicans control the House of Representatives despite the fact a majority of Americans voted for representation by the other party,  limiting reproductive choice and forced unnecessary medical procedures for women, corporate "personhood", Big Money is "free speech", torture, warrantless surveillance, indefinite detention without charges or counsel, etc. are all Republican initiated assaults on civil liberties and democracy.

Their Bill of Rights ends at the Second Amendment. (Do they know here was civilian firearm ownership in the Third Reich?)

The truth is clear to anyone with even a partially open mind. The pseudo-fascists of the radical Right are the domestic enemies of equality and democracy. They want to suppress the interests and will of the majority of Americans.

And corporate owned Democrats are the appeasers that cripple any opposition to the radical Right’s war on democracy.
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The radical Right's "liberal media" propaganda campaign, aka the Big Lie, has worked so well.

No wonder so many millions of Americans are so ignorant and fearful to think Obama is a foreign born Muslim socialist and even the Antichrist. There’s no liberal media campaign against that ignorance.

The vast portion of national media is corporate owned and corporate biased. How can corporate media be as liberal as the Right says it is? It is not.

When has anyone seen the NY Times or Washington Post advocate for cannabis de-criminalization?

When has anyone seen the NY Times or Washington Post advocate investigation of Bush/Cheney torture, their false statements leading to war, and demand the repeal of the Patriot Act, etc.?

Remember the NY Times' Judith Miller's parroting of the Bush/Cheney Iraq lies? Remember the Times withheld warrantless surveillance stories, demanded by the Bush White House, until after the ’04 election? Some liberal media, eh?

When has anyone seen the NY Times or Washington Post advocate for the repeal of corporate personhood, for restoring Glass/Steagall, for public funded elections, for Medicare for all, for...you get the picture.

“Any dictator would admire the uniformity and obedience of the U.S. media.” - Noam Chomsky

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Let’s look at the most rabid anti-union, anti-worker, and anti-bargaining rights forces, and the lines are clear. Dictators, Fascists, Communists...and Republicans all need to suppress the people in order to hold power. This is nothing less than the struggle between democracy and totalitarianism.
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When nearly half of all Republican voters believe Obama is a foreign born Marxist Muslim, the Big Lie is in effect.

When nearly half of all Republican voters believe ACORN stole the 2012 re-election for Obama, after ACORN no longer existed, the Big Lie is in effect.

When Beck accuses Obama of being a racist who hates white people and still keeps his multimillion dollar job as propagandist and fear-monger, the Big Lie is in effect.

When Limbaugh claims that the Left, not the Right is racist, the Big Lie is in effect.

When a hundred thousand pro-union demonstrators peacefully protest a governor’s fascistic stripping of their rights, and are constantly called “union thugs” anyway, the Big Lie is in effect.

When moderate right democrats are called socialists for advancing proposals initially espoused by republicans, the Big Lie is in effect.

When liberals are portrayed as communists, and accused of destroying America, this is fascist scapegoating, exactly in the pattern of twentieth century European fascist propaganda.

Now it has transformed into Republican American “conservatism”.

When Republican "conservatism" is believed to be American conservatism, the Big Lie is in effect.
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What Are “Conservatives” Trying to Conserve?

Great question. Whether they know it or not, what they are trying to conserve is complete political, economic and social dominance by the economic elites by what amounts to a "Divine Right of Wealth".
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The human race is a herd species. They are generally oblivious to anything but their grazing, until they become frightfully responsive to any loud alarm of threats, real or unreal. Big Money has the loudest voice over their pasture, and liberals and democracy itself are the threats bleated in their false alarms to the herd.
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Suggestions for new national motto and pledge:

 "In Greed We Trust"

"I pledge allegiance to the wealthy elite, and to the wealth they must amass, ever more at my expense, and to the nation's decline, in war after endless war.”

37 comments:

free0352 said...

Let’s look at the most rabid anti-union, anti-worker, and anti-bargaining rights forces, and the lines are clear. Dictators, Fascists, Communists

I had to chuckle when I read this. On a daily basis I spend most of my time running off from job sites union "organizers" who do business by threatening and intimidating not even management (though they try that too) but mostly rand and file workers. Their goal of course now that Michigan is a right to work state, is to make them join the union.

OR ELSE.

I don't know about government, but just these past months I've seen unions assault old women, vandalize personal and corporate property, and threaten the lives and even children of regular working people. So one good way to get me on anyone's "side" is to call that side anti-union. I'm not against the theory of unions, but the execution of them is disgusting.

okjimm said...

Free....once again....the main point has zinged right over your head. Totally. You have chosen to take ONE SENTENCE.....and run a tangent. Gees, are you obtuse or what?

"I don't know about government, but just these past months I've seen unions assault old women, vandalize personal and corporate property, and threaten the lives and even children of regular working people"

... and you cannot document any of what you have just said. With police reports, news reports, film...... Free....you just make shit up.

To Dave's point........ I just love it when FoX describes news organizations other than their own, as Corporate Media...and thus Liberal. It is rather ironic....Fox is a huge corporate within Rupert Murdoch's huge empire......and is decidedly NOT LIberal. What Fox repeatedly says is the BIG LIE...and they repeat it so often that it is believed.

Dave Dubya said...

Free,
I don't know about government,

I do. This situation was forced upon unions by the Kochs Big Money machine and the Republican Party, in other words, government of by and for the rich. You give no examples of intimidation or threats. Maybe someone says he was threatened or intimidated simply because he was approached by a union person and given some reasons to join and help work for the benefits he enjoys. Are unions supposed to shut up and let workers scoop up the benefits the union negotiated for them? You’re familiar with the “takers and producers” dogma. Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?

I’m not saying there are no union thugs. There are. There are also corporate thugs and police thugs, right? The difference is the entire right wing corporate media and extremist talk radio thugs declare all union people are thugs.

The major issue most anti-union thugs...er elites... ignore is we all do better when we all do better. Workers need decent pay to contribute to a sound economy so the elites can prosper. If their goal is to reduce us all to minimum wage, they will lose a lot of the “trickle up” wealth they’re used to collecting. This is a case of short term bottom line mentality hurting the long term growth that is best for all of us.

But the war on unions is not so much economic as it is political. Fascists, dictators, communists, republicans and other anti-union types are all politically opposed to unions for the same reason. They want ALL the power. Neo-feudalism is the only logical end to their war on democracy and workers.

one good way to get me on anyone's "side" is to call that side anti-union

Ok, so you side with Hitler, Stalin and the Republican Party on something.

Okjimm,
To a rational perspective, it is outrageous and hilarious how FOX(R) refers to other networks as “mainstream” or even “lamestream”. I’ll agree on the lame part, only for the corporate, not the mythical liberal, bias. If there’s a Hell, Murdoch will be one of Satan’s favorite pets over in the anti-union section with Hitler and Stalin.

okjimm said...

Dave..
The Big Lie....lives.
Of late I have been watching political commentary; MSNBC and Fox. It is a vice, I know but winter and mobility issues have kept me inside. What is notably different between the two, and their commentators seems very simple. More often than not, Maddow, O'Donnell, Ed Schultz document. They cite, the show the video. It is the basic who,what,when,why,where and how of journalism. I had a degree in Speech communication and a minor in Journalism...never used, alas...but I always remember the W's.
Fox and their folks, O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter seldom or ever do. Fox is also noted for the selective edit....showing only what they wish and then twisting meaning content.
MSNBC and Fox commentators both engage in a rhetorical style that is combative,caustic,cynical and abrasive. More so, it seems to me this is style used more on Fox....but it seems to sell and both networks engage.
This has permeated civil discussions. He who interrupts most,speaks the loudest, is the most insulting, is more sarcastic....is the Winner of the Conversation?
There are other, more analytical shows to watch, listen to,but not many that I am able to catch.
Now, Friend Free will disagree...or perhps write another tangent....but to back your point completely, in late June of 2012 The GOP of Texas, as party of their Party Platform, renounced the teaching of "Critical Thinking.
http://www.austinchronicle.com/blogs/news/2012-06-27/gop-opposes-critical-thinking/

"Knowledge-Based Education – We oppose the teaching of Higher Order Thinking Skills (HOTS) (values clarification), critical thinking skills and similar programs that are simply a relabeling of Outcome-Based Education (OBE) (mastery learning) which focus on behavior modification and have the purpose of challenging the student’s fixed beliefs and undermining parental authority."

The Right, the Radical Right....does not want anyone to think....they will do it for you.

Free..you can cut and paste that...hyuperlinks make me sneeze.

free0352 said...

and you cannot document any of what you have just said

Actually doing that is my whole job.

I do. This situation was forced upon unions by the Kochs Big Money

Yes, its the Koch brothers who force unions to come on my job sites and slash people's tires and scream at women. Sure it is.

I’m not saying there are no union thugs. There are

Yes, there are. And while not all union members are thugs, all organizers are thugs in my experience. If unions are so great, why do they have to send 250 pound guys into job sites and sabotage the work or threaten people to get people to join. If unions were any good, you'd think people would be lining up to join, on their own time instead of having to be escorted by my security detail to their cars.


okjimm said...

"If unions are so great, why do they have to send 250 pound guys into job sites and sabotage the work.."

""Actually doing that is my whole job.""

GEES, FRRE...in the words of
"Rand Paul...if I were your boss I would fire you! You do not document well at all....say...do you have press clippings of these incidents? Were the police called? You sure those guys weren't only 190?

But the most telling thing...you are again off subject...taking a tangent that you will not or cannot document and running with it.

you have precisely proved the point of the post....predictably so. You practice what Fox does...just say things ...add.."I saw" or "some people say"

and ...back to point...here is a little documentation on the credibility of Fox News...Cut and Paste at your leisure

http://www.upworthy.com/want-to-see-fox-news-lose-all-its-credibility-in-93-seconds

Dave Dubya said...

Free,

Yes, its the Koch brothers fault. They force unions to react to the Koch/Republican war waged against them. These people’s health care, wages and benefits are under direct threat. The Right started the war. What happens as a result is entirely their fault. Just as it was Bush’s fault thousands of Americans died over fictional nukular tubes and biolabs and connections to al-Qaeda.

You want unions to shut up and be destroyed without them even defending themselves? Right. That’s your corporate big government at it worst. It is a complete betrayal of the people and a war on democracy and the middle class. Crushing the little guy while serving the aristocracy can go only so far.

Slashed tires are the least of damages. You’re lucky nobody is getting shot. But keep pushing them to desperation and see what happens.

If unions are so great the middle class is what they brought about. That is great. Now it is open political warfare waged by your aristocratic elites against us. Now your heroes want to let the antii-union creeps profit from union efforts. Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others? You didn’t answer me.

lining up to join Why? The Kochs and Republicans have made it easy for them to enjoy the benefits without joining. How long those benefits will last is highly in doubt though.

I pity the future of your generation’s kids. Your fellow servants of the elites will be the only ones fed while they help put the boot heel to the throats of American workers. Nothing but Chinese level slave labor will make your fascist amoral Atlas happy. There is no end to greed. And the end always justifies the means with them.

One day you may live to see how correct I am. I hope I’m wrong, but everything is headed that way.

Funny how Big Government is ok with you when it works against your fellow Americans.

Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others? You won’t answer, but I will. It fosters the very conflict you and your elite masters want. Divide and conquer. Americans’ right to collective bargaining is being destroyed while you whine about someone who will never come for you guns. You are a pawn.

Yes Americans will have the right to bear arms as they lose other rights and slip into third world poverty. That should work out well

free0352 said...

Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?

I'll answer that. Its easy, don't represent them if they've earned so much. But thats not what I see. I see fat, lazy, union bosses enjoying forced dues and 500.00 union initiation fees. Guys in the union living high on the hog, selling out the membership because hey... its not like the rank and file had a choice about paying into their protection racket.

Till now.

You want unions to shut up and be destroyed without them even defending themselves?

How courageous these defenders, intimidating women and regular guys going to work? Should they get medals for bravery when they run away every single time they see me?

You’re lucky nobody is getting shot. But keep pushing them to desperation and see what happens.

Well, we'll see. I shoot back.


Dave Dubya said...

Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?

Your answer makes no sense at all. Mine did. Divide and conquer. You seem rather fond of Big Business and Big Government stripping workers of rights and benefits. You’re a useful mercenary in the class war against fellow Americans.

You want unions to shut up and be destroyed without them even defending themselves?
I take it your answer is yes, then. You’ve admitted enjoying intimidating others too, you know.

You’re lucky nobody is getting shot. But keep pushing them to desperation and see what happens.

So since you’re packing, it’s ok to push workers to desperation?

free0352 said...

Your answer makes no sense at all

Sure it does. If you don't want people who didn't pay dues to get the benefits you negotiated for, don't let them be part of your contract. If being in the union is advantageous, people will check the yes box and join. I don't stop people from joining unions, I simply stop union employees from doing damage and trying to scare people.

You’re a useful mercenary in the class war against fellow Americans.

If you mean a class struggle in the marxist vein then damn right.

You’ve admitted enjoying intimidating others too, you know.

I intimidate those who would intimidate others. And as for shooting people, as I said, I shoot back. I'm not looking to kill anyone. Be that as it may, if someone else pulls a gun I will either be killed or kill with ruthless efficiency. I will meet force with force in a proportional way. I meet the fist with the fist, the club with the tazer and baton, and the gun with a bigger gun.

A smart person wouldn't go that route.

So since you’re packing, it’s ok to push workers to desperation?

The only desperation I see is on the faces of those who didn't check the box the union bosses said they should. The people who are intimidated at work, the owners of the vandalized cars, the people with the lost work hours due to union sabotage.



Dave Dubya said...

Your answer STILL makes no sense at all
It doesn’t apply in the real world. Divide and conquer does.

If being in the union is advantageous No “if” about it. It’s how the middle class grew. Tell us how that’s working out in non-union manufacturing jobs.. if there are any left.

class struggle in the marxist vein

I mean a class war against American workers in the corporate government vein. I told you it’s the same with your other anti-union dictators. It’s about stripping rights and political power from working people. You know this is true, you just cannot admit it. You seem to love Big Government when it steps on the little guy, and hate it when it taxes your heroes. I guess you can’t think outside the Randroid box, can you? Seems there was still a bit of Stalin left in your Alicia Rosenbaum. Step on the little guy and praise the corrupt elites. Works in every totalitarian system.

Should American workers be treated like Chinese slaves? We know how much that would please your masters. No more need for a fair way to negotiate pay, benefits, and working conditions. We know you hate the very word “fair” don’t you?

Guys like you are very valuable to tyrants. The don’t have any use for a word like fair either. Same with unions and workers’ rights, or accountability for war crimes based on lies. Your elites are above the law and play by their own rules as they buy our politicians who must work for them and not America.

More wars will be started under similar deceptions because corporate government likes it that way and their thugs like future Bush/Cheneys will know they can get away with it. And they will have plenty of fodder from the underpaid and jobless young Americans. Death and deprivation will be both the tools and consequences of your Brave New World. For there will be no “fair”, no justice, no peace, no pensions, no safety nets, no hope in your uncivil society of neo-feudalism. Lords and their thugs will suppress the serfs in the future glorious Corporate Police State of America. Oh sure, you’ll keep your guns. There was civilian gun ownership in the Third Reich. But there will be no more other rights. Unions will be designated terrorist organizations. This is no stretch. Peace advocates have already spied on as such.

You do know a definition of fascism is:

Fascism n. A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.

-American Heritage Dictionary 1973

First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—

Because I was not a Socialist.

Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Trade Unionist.

Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out--

Because I was not a Jew.

Then they came for me--and there was no one left to speak for me.


-Pastor Martin Niemoeller


Ring a bell?


Dave Dubya said...

A smart person wouldn't go that route.

No, but a desperate one may. Again this is all the fault of your masters’ class war on working Americans. They started it; they are to blame for bad things resulting from their war. Not that they care, for accountability is removed. It’s all part of their divide and conquer plan. You know this is also true, but cannot admit it. Your Gods have no faults. It is rule by divine right of wealth. That is the core of your belief system. You may as well believe non-elites are subhuman like fascists do. They don’t deserve the representation in government that the corrupt “free speech” money buys for your exalted amoral Atlas. The don’t deserve a pension, health care, or job security either. They are treated as sub-humans, just not to the extreme as your fascists have done to others. But that may still change. Power is never voluntarily relinquished; it is always increased as demanded by the powerful. You should know this is true too. But you cannot admit it is true for your heroes. Does power not corrupt your gods?

Of course not. They are pure by divine right of wealth.

They want it all, you know. But you can’t admit this.

free0352 said...

It doesn’t apply in the real world

Call me crazy but I'm pretty sure here in the real world people are denied service for not paying for stuff all the time. Try going to the store and ask the manager if you can just have something without paying, see where that gets you. Unions should do... the exact same thing. They do this today in right to work states. And shockingly none of these places have slave labor. In fact, since they enacted right to work, their standards of living have increased. Southern states used to look like third world countries. Everyone knows that. Right To Work made them competitive, and their standards of living got better by many magnitudes.

The don’t have any use for a word like fair either.

World isn't fair. Grow up. But lets take a look at what you're really saying here Dave, behind all that bluster and hyperbole. What you said right here in your own post when you said-

"What happens as a result [of right to work] is entirely their fault."

"You want unions to shut up and be destroyed without them even defending themselves?"

So what you're saying there, is that people should be FORCED to join and pay unions, or lose their jobs. And if they find some way to avoid this forced membership, its perfectly justifiable to beat them, intimidate them, and destroy their property and those said people are lucky they aren't lined up and shot.

And then after you say this, you claim **I** work for tyrants.

Thats astonishing.









Dave Dubya said...

Free,
Your digression doesn’t apply in the real world. Divide and conquer does. But as I said, you cannot admit that fact, among many others.

World isn't fair. Grow up. I love that line. It justifies cruelty better than anything else. So stripping rights and imposing economic fascism are OK?

Southern States are a workers paradise now? What a joke. Non-union Nissan employees no longer have pensions. Look at literacy, infant mortality and other curious factors while you cherry pick isolated data showing “standards of living got better by many magnitudes” Educate us, please.

People willingly take jobs knowing they are unions jobs, don’t they? Yes, of course they do. But some want benefits for free, thanks to the Right's class war, don't they?

I thought you hated that type? I guess it depends on ideology. "Some animals are more equal than others".

Changing rules on workers is the classic way of corrupt power. Divide and conquer is the plan.

And there you go again with the, "Just because they started the war doesn't mean the consequences are their fault." No wonder you believe the likes of Cheney, and hold on to amoral narcissistic, greed-based, philosophy.

Dave Dubya said...

The Right’s class war continues.

From The Washignton Post:

Atop the list of landmark laws that conservatives have never particularly warmed to are two that established fundamental rights for workers and consumers: the 1935 National Labor Relations Act, which provided employees a legal path to form unions, and the 2010 Dodd-Frank financial reform, which established a Consumer Financial Protection Bureau to rein in banks’ abusive treatment of depositors and mortgage holders.

Meanwhile in non-union “Workers’ Paradise”:

Among states, Mississippi fares the worst. Of its 82 counties, 26 had life expectancies for men in 2007 that were roughly 66 to 69 years.

okjimm said...

Free...."Call me crazy"

Rather...you are a true believer and as Erich Hoffer describes,

“Absolute faith corrupts as absolutely as absolute power.”

Free classically will evade any information, opinion or fact that obstructs his core beliefs. The idea that the Right Wing Corporate Media, as exemplified by Fox News may be wrong, or is less than perfect seems to scare him...so much so that he will not address the subject and retreats back into his own core feelings, or anxieties.

Joesph Goebels notably said,
"“The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly - it must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over”

..which is what Fox pundits repeatedly do.
A striking trait of a real true believer is that they tend t0rongly to engage in one-way discourse. Anyone not endorsing their particular belief is promptly labeled some kind of idiot, heretic, fool, or some term that denigrates the questioning person. A true believer's personal identity is always wrapped closely in belief system. Clearly, any criticism of that belief system is then taken as a personal insult.

As much as Friend Free will deny...he is deathly afraid of having to think for himself. When his core thought is threatened...he will construe that as a individual attack, and .....go get his gun?

"

free0352 said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
free0352 said...

You act as if Southern states haven't seen massive improvement since the 1970s. Look where Mississippi was 40 years ago. It might still lag behind some Northern states, but its a thousand times better than it was. Things got a lot better for Mississippians with Right To Work, because they got more competitive with Northern states where before they were not. Of course if you live in a Northern state you might cry about that... but like I said. Life isn't fair. And now that Northern States like Michigan are getting in the game and seeking to get some of the jobs they lost to the South back you bitch and moan.

Certainly Mississippi is no where near as bad as China. And now that Michigan is more competitive than it was, it will loser fewer jobs and grow more that it was. Hey, at this point anything is an improvement.

Divide and conquer does.

That's astonishing, if by that you mean Right To Work's effect on union solidarity. If unions aren't serving their membership well enough to entice people to join... that's their fault. If they suck so much they have to force people to join on pain of employees loss of a job, they aren't benefiting anyone other than fat-cat union bosses. Big labor is as bad as any corporation, including the lobbying and corruption. Oh, and they have mob ties. How nice.

Forcing someone to pay union dues? Sounds like real freedom to me. Pay us... or else. That sure is freedom!

So stripping rights

Forcing people to pay union dues isn't much of a right. Its more like the opposite of a right. Its forcing -what you admit in a back handed fashion is a lot of people- to pay to be a member of an organization. Coercion? Sounds like freedom to me!

Just because they started the war doesn't mean the consequences are their fault

Again, astonishing. Passing a law that ends forced membership in a union is grounds for armed conflict now? I would call ending the legalized extortion. Apparently you call legalized extortion a "right," and those who stand up to the ones running the protection racket tyrants.

I guess we really do have some very different concepts of what freedom means. I certainly would say employees who choose not to check the yes box on union membership have a right not to be intimidated, beaten, lose work due to sabotage or be abused, or be harassed.

You seem to think doing those things is down right patriotic.

Dave Dubya said...

Free,

Just because they started the war doesn't mean the consequences are their fault

So we see yes, that is your position.

Passing a law that ends forced membership in a union is grounds for armed conflict now?

Maybe you should reduce your caffeine intake. No, that is not my position. It is class war we’re talking about, not armed conflict.

If you accept a union job, why shouldn’t you accept joining the union? You didn’t answer my questions.

People willingly take jobs knowing they are unions jobs, don’t they? Yes, of course they do. But some want benefits for free, thanks to the Right's class war, don't they? Yes, of course they do. Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?

This is class war, but you cannot admit it.

Nobody should be intimidated, beaten, lose work due to sabotage or be abused, or be harassed. You act like I promote that. Do you promote the worst of military and police abuses? Enough straw men.


now that Michigan is more competitive than it was, it will loser fewer jobs and grow more that it was

As I’ve said so many times, you are indeed a “true believer”.

You act like nothing is returned for union dues. Benefits are returned for dues. Extortionists don’t provide representation and negotiate health care benefits.

Reality has a lesson for you. Look at what’s happened to our middle class and national standard of living since the war on unions has reduced union membership to a fraction of what it used to be. Go ahead, tell us what you find.


News for you. Mississippi, although still not China, but that is what Atlas wants, is still at the bottom in the poverty rates for states. Worse than pre-right-to-work-for-less Michigan, in fact.


Take a look at the states with the highest poverty rates. We ain’t just whistling Dixie .

Yes, most are “Right to work for less” states.

“And indeed, private-sector employees in right-to-work states earned an average of $738.43 a week in the past 12 months, 9.8% less than workers in states without such laws, according to an analysis of Labor Department data that didn't include health-care and other benefits.”

free0352 said...

If you accept a union job

Its not the unions job, its the company's job.

Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?

You earn your own benefits. But as for any benefits -or lack there of- its an easy fix. Don't negotiate on behalf of non-union employees. Don't represent them in grevences, don't do shit for people who don't pay dues. Nothing, zip, nada.

You act like I promote that.

You did, and I quoted you where I did. You called them consequences. If you aren't for those things, you can't be for unions, because thats how some union organizers get or keep membership. Youtube search union thugery sometime.


You act like nothing is returned for union dues

Really? What? Working hours? Government regulated. Minimum wage? Government regulated. Safe working conditions? Government regulated. What DO unions do. When I was a teamster it seemed like they took their 500 buck initiation fee and then shit on the junior members.

And say what you will about southern states. One thing you can't say, is that they were better off 40 years ago. Across the board they are better off.






Dave Dubya said...

Free,

you accept a union job
Its not the unions job, its the company's job.


You really do love to play semantic evasions to valid points, don’t you? It’s easier than debating.


Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?
You earn your own benefits. But as for any benefits -or lack there of- its an easy fix. Don't negotiate on behalf of non-union employees. Don't represent them in grevences, don't do shit for people who don't pay dues. Nothing, zip, nada.


Still can’t answer within the bounds of reality, eh? Just keep believing in the pie in the sky jobs for poor Michigan.

You act like I promote that.
You did, and I quoted you where I did. You called them consequences.


You should definitely reduce your caffeine intake, or whatever it is that gets you to jump to absurd conclusions.

free0352 said...

Still can’t answer within the bounds of reality, eh

If I work for GM, the UAW doesn't issue my paychecks.

And if unions don't want people to get represented for free... don't freak'n represent the people who don't pay. This happens all the time in Right To Work States, it also happens in every other area of commerce on the planet. Go to say, oh I don't know, a talent agent. They do a very similar job unions do. Negotiate on your behalf. Now, quit paying said agent. Amazingly they won't negotiate for you anymore. Unions can of course do this too. Negotiate contracts for their members, and leave the non-members out in the cold.

Of course every time that happens, companies shower employees with money to avoid having to deal with the massive pain in the ass that is organized labor.

Winner, employee, and management. Loser? Union thug.

This situation actually makes you mad.

Dave Dubya said...

This happens all the time in Right To Work States

Then this should be very easy for you to document, right?

Jerry Critter said...

"Negotiate contracts for their members, and leave the non-members out in the cold."

While that sound all well and good, I think companies would have some real legal problems paying people different wages and benefits for doing the same job with the only difference being if they belong to the union.

free0352 said...

I think companies would have some real legal problems paying people different wages and benefits for doing the same job with the only difference being if they belong to the union.

Why is that? I don't see that as being a problem. Either the union will be successful in getting people to join by choice via doing a good job and being worth the dues, or no one will join it and it will dry up because people don't want it.

Either way, so what?

Dave,

Then this should be very easy for you to document, right?

Sure. I WAS IN A UNION in a right to work state. Those unions are still there. Simply google search any city in a right to work state and the name of the union you happen to think up. You'll get a local chapter for every big city and most small ones. And funny thing, the unions do a hell of a lot better job taking care of the membership when the membership can quit paying the dues as opposed to taking them for granted when the only way out is to quit the job.



Dave Dubya said...

Free,
Thanks for giving an answer, although it wasn’t; to my question. I must say, as is the tendency of the Right, your ignorance is matched by your certainty.

And if unions don't want people to get represented for free... don't freak'n represent the people who don't pay.

This happens all the time in Right To Work States


You didn’t show us evidence, of course Then this and the following question should be very easy for you to document, right?.

Why should some workers get the benefits earned by others?
You earn your own benefits. But as for any benefits -or lack there of- its an easy fix. Don't negotiate on behalf of non-union employees. Don't represent them in grevences, don't do shit for people who don't pay dues. Nothing, zip, nada.


Except two facts get in your way,

One; Nobody is forced to join a union. They used to have to pay at least a representation fee. This is no longer the case in Right to work for less states.

Two: Unions still must represent non-members. Right to work for less allows non-members to reap benefits without fee or membership.


Maine Center For Economic Policy: "Under Federal Labor Law, Workers Cannot Be Legally Required To Join A Union."

The Maine Center for Economic Policy laid out how forced union membership is illegal in a February 2011 op-ed: "A right-to-work law is not needed to protect nonunion workers. Several federal laws already protect the rights of nonunion employees in unionized workplaces, such as the NLRB vs. General Motors Supreme Court decision in 1963, and the Communication Workers vs. Beck decision of 1988. Under federal labor law, workers cannot be legally required to join a union as part of a collective bargaining contract." [Maine Center For Economic Policy

NLRB: Workers That Don't Want Full Union Membership "Pay Only That Share Of Dues Used Directly For Representation" Of Union Contract They Work Under.

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) explains that workers do not have to be full union members, but instead must only pay for the union representation they receive by working at a union shop, regardless of their membership status. The NLRB says that "employees who object to full union membership may continue as 'core' members and pay only that share of dues used directly for representation, such as collective bargaining and contract administration. Known as objectors, they are no longer full members but are still protected by the union contract." NLRB also notes that right-to-work states allow non-union members to pay nothing, "even though all workers are protected by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the union."

NLRB: Workers That Don't Want Full Union Membership "Pay Only That Share Of Dues Used Directly For Representation" Of Union Contract They Work Under.

The National Labor Relations Board (NLRB) explains that workers do not have to be full union members, but instead must only pay for the union representation they receive by working at a union shop, regardless of their membership status. The NLRB says that "employees who object to full union membership may continue as 'core' members and pay only that share of dues used directly for representation, such as collective bargaining and contract administration. Known as objectors, they are no longer full members but are still protected by the union contract." NLRB also notes that right-to-work states allow non-union members to pay nothing, "even though all workers are protected by the collective bargaining agreement negotiated by the union."

There, once again I have answered my questions for you.

You’re welcome.

free0352 said...

You didn’t show us evidence, of course Then this and the following question should be very easy for you to document, right?.

Clearly unions exist in right to work states. This is a fact. Some employees are members, some choose not to be. What possible source could you need? What next, evidence the sky is blue?

Nobody is forced to join a union. They used to have to pay at least a representation fee.

I call that being forced to join a union. Call it whatever you want. Bottom line, I if given the choice may or may not join a union. If I'm forced to pay it, I'll fight tooth and nail not to on pure principle because I don't like to be forced into anything. I'm certainly not alone in that conviction. I don't like bullies, and extorting a worker with his job or his money in dues -we'll call it a fee if that makes you feel better- is extortion. Only the government can do that with taxes. Unions should NOT have that power. If a worker doesn't want your unions "help" then don't give it to them. Forcing your "help" on them is the wrong answer.

What a defender of democracy you are! Nothing says freedom like having to chose between your job and forking over thousands of dollars a year in... oh what did you call it? Who cares. Its fucking protection money. Pay it, or we'll take your job. Or worse, bash your face in, threaten your children and set your car on fire. Thats why I enjoy my job. I am hired SPECIFICALLY to locate the union thugs who play that crap, follow them, build cases on them so air tight no police agency could not prosecute them, and they testify against them in court. Oh, and throw their asses off the property. I get a real kick out of standing up to a bunch of leeches trying to force workers to keep financing their easy lives as union stooges. You see real fear in their eyes these days here in Michigan. Fear the free union ride that gives them cush jobs while they abuse members is going to end. And there is NOTHING like fear in the eye of a bully.

Dave Dubya said...

Free,
Now there you go again. Your straw men, reality-proof bubble mentality, shrill hysterics, and evasions are getting boring.

So who said unions don’t exist in right to work for less states? We are all aware of your tactic of distraction when you cannot answer a question. It’s a typical Rightie behavior. After all, your entire purpose is to defend the elite’s political and economic power and help put their boot to the throats of American workers. Divine right of wealth is your idea of freedom, eh? Totalitarianism ensues from your efforts. History has many examples.

Stooges? Ha, speak for yourself. You see the worst of a minority of a group behavior and want to impose collective punishment on all of them. How fascist of you.

Your radical view sees Wall Street banksters having done less harm than unions, who are under attack by your beloved Big Government corporatocracy. And you call them thugs? As I said, extortionists don’t negotiate pay, benefits and pensions do they? No your masters want to deprive workers of as much pay and political power as they can get away with.

You’re a fanatic true believer, who would have gladly served as an anti union thug under a dictator. You are now such a thug, practically speaking. The US is fast becoming an inverted totalitarian nation. But you can’t see that, can you?

Furthermore I don’t believe you’ve witnessed any assaults at all. I think you goad fellow union haters into making up and exaggerating crap. It’s what the Right is best at, and you have proven it repeatedly.

I dedicate our new national motto and pledge to your fanatic loyalty to your masters:

"In Greed We Trust"

"I pledge allegiance to the wealthy elite, and to the wealth they must amass, ever more at my expense, and to the nation's decline, in war after endless war.”

free0352 said...

As I said, extortionists don’t negotiate pay

Thats right. They don't. They don't allow people to make choices. They use force. They force people against their will. Like when unions forced people to join. Or what did you call it... pay a fee. Unions in FORCED TO JOIN states are like the Borg in star trek. Resistance is futile, you WILL be assimilated.

But you can’t see that, can you?

I see you making breathless, dramatic statements like a teenage girl in the defense of REAL oppression. Forcing regular people to pay protection money to a union they do not want to join. And even excusing violence against them for not complying.






Dave Dubya said...

LOL!

A representation fee for health benefits, work conditions, pension and pay is “REAL oppression”.

LOL!!!

Projecting “breathless, dramatic statements like a teenage girl” again?

“FORCED TO JOIN states”? Name one please.

free0352 said...

Michigan up till recently ;)

They TOOK the union dues right out of your check if you worked in a union shop. No one even ASKED if you wanted representation. You got it and you had to pay for it or you could quit. Thats over now, the drones can now escape the collective.

free0352 said...

Oh, and if you didn't pay THE FULL DUES and just paid... what did you call it... a fee? Well, if you did that you had to worry what would happen to your car or you might have an accident at work or they might just beat the shit out of you.

Thats freedom boy!

Dave Dubya said...

Free,
You just contradicted yourself.

They TOOK the union dues right out of your check if you worked in a union shop. No one even ASKED if you wanted representation.

And:

if you didn't pay THE FULL DUES and just paid... what did you call it... a fee

Which is it?

“FORCED TO JOIN states”? Name one please.

Michigan up till recently ;)

Nope. Nobody was forced to join “up till recently”.

Read this again:

Several federal laws already protect the rights of nonunion employees in unionized workplaces, such as the NLRB vs. General Motors Supreme Court decision in 1963, and the Communication Workers vs. Beck decision of 1988. Under federal labor law, workers cannot be legally required to join a union as part of a collective bargaining contract."

You see, they already had the “right to work”, now they have the right to work for less.

free0352 said...

Which is it?

You YOURSELF kindly explained for us that if you don't "join" a union you "have to pay a representation fee."

Dude, thats being forced to join a union. You want a source, I'll use you. Your words.

Under federal labor law, workers cannot be legally required to join a union as part of a collective bargaining contract."

Yup, they just call it a "fee" and we play with the definition of the word "join" and all is a-okay with forcing employees to pay unions money... least in your book.

There are 26 states where you can be forced to pay union dues as a condition of employment.



Dave Dubya said...


Free,

By paying taxes, do you ”join” the government? No. But you’re supposed to get representation.

By paying a representation fee, do you ”join” the union? No. But you’re supposed to get representation.

The fee is less than membership dues. Union members pay more for both membership and representation.

It must offer you great comfort to unilaterally define words to fit your bubble. Unions, taxes, safety nets, and public service are all “tyranny” and “oppression”.

Oh the inhumanity! The tragedy! The horror! Boohoo.

free0352 said...

By paying taxes, do you ”join” the government?

Big difference and you know it. Government is one thing, forced union membership is another, which is more akin to the draft than simple citizenship. As you recall, I'm not for the draft either. Both are equally oppressive. Actually the draft is less oppressive, as at least they pay you.

By paying a representation fee, do you ”join” the union? No.

Bull shit. Of course that is what it is.


free0352 said...

Actually you know what its most akin to? Being forced into buying private insurance "they" tell you to through ObamaCare!