Thursday, December 2, 2010

A Hero's Vote

Maybe some of you are also World War II history readers. And maybe you also saw the HBO series “Band of Brothers”. This was an excellent adaptation of Stephen Ambrose’s book of the same title.

The book and series follow the brave men of Easy Company through the war as they jumped and fought with the 101st Airborne Division from the D-Day invasion of Normandy, to the failed “Operation Market Garden” in Holland, and to the incredible heroic defense of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge.

I have a particular personal interest in the Battle of the Bulge because my father-in-law served in the 318th Infantry Regiment in Patton’s Third Army. The 318th was the infantry support for the 4th Armored Division as they broke through the German lines to relieve Bastogne. I had lost one second cousin killed and another captured in that same battle.

We hear them rightly referred to as the “Greatest Generation” for all they went through. They grew up in the Great Depression and fought to victory in the Second World War. They saw our country endure hardships we can only imagine in our worst case scenarios of Republican rule.

While Republicans under Herbert Hoover were collapsing the economy and George W. Bush’s grandfather Prescott Bush was doing business with Nazi Germany, other Americans were re-electing Franklin D. Roosevelt. Apart from the Americans in uniform, those are the other members of the Greatest Generation to whom we owe a great debt. If not for their votes, we’d have no Social Security, no New Deal, and perhaps Republicans would have sided with Germany before the war. Nobody likes to talk about it, but there were large Nazi rallies in the US before the war.

I want to share with you the words of one member of that Band of Brothers who both fought in the war and voted for FDR. He was wounded in Normandy and again in Holland. Shortly before he was shot in the leg, he voted for the first time in his life. His words seem to ring truer today than back in October of 1944. Here is what he wrote about his first time voting in his book, “Parachute Infantry”.

***

My First Vote

I had to walk almost two miles to cast my ballot, but I would have walked ten, if necessary, because this was my first vote-I was 22 in June-and I had always wanted to cast it for Roosevelt, the greatest President we had ever had and the only one who ever gave the working man a break.

Roosevelt had faced and overcome the two great crises America had ever suffered: the worst depression in history and the world’s biggest war. He was a politician, as crafty and conniving as any, for politics is a cesspool of lying lawyers, but his work was greater than the man, and the country was better for it.

The rich Republicans hated Roosevelt for helping the working man, for encouraging the labor unions to wring a fair day’s wage for a fair day’s work out of employers who had never heard of such a thing before and for putting into effect fair employment practices that they considered outrageously Socialistic.

Roosevelt helped the unemployed when Herbert Hoover, the last Republican, an engineer who never quite understood humanity, had said, “Let every man help his brother,” when he knew perfectly well that the rich weren’t about to help the poor, never had and never would.

I had grown up with Republicans and gone to school and college with them, and sickened by their selfishness, their cold avarice, and lofty contempt for the common people, had early sworn to vote for the Democrats, who, for all their rotten political faults, were more concerned with the welfare of the country as a whole.

David Kenyon Webster - Holland 1944, with Easy Company, 506th Parachute Infantry Regiment, 101st Airborne Division

***

A lot of us are tired of Obama and the Democrats, with their endless capitulation and “pre-compromise” with Republicans. A lot of us are ready to give up, and it’s hard to not sympathize with those of us frustrated by politics.

But, I for one don’t want this man’s vision to die. He fought for our right to continue the struggle against those in our country who do not want what is best for us. There is an entire party that puts money ahead of country. I will never stop doing everything I can to stop Republicans from destroying our freedoms, our economy, and our future, even if it means voting for those Democrats with their “rotten political faults”.

Too much depends on it.

51 comments:

Rick said...

I am with you Dave in not wanting this man's vision (and that of thousands of others that sacrificed everything to keep the rest of us free) to die.

I am disgusted with the Democrats because too many of them have prostituted themselves to the corporate interests that put them where they are. There is no excuse for us not to have healthcare for everyone with a genuine alternative to the for-profit insurance companies. There is no excuse for us to continue escalating two stupid wars we never should have started and have no possibility of winning. There is no excuse for not giving tax cuts to 98 percent of the people without borrowing to give more to millionaires.

But one clear truth still remains. The Republicans have made it more clear than ever before that millionaires are all they care about. They refuse to even vote on anything unless it either cuts help for poor people or gives millionaires more of the pie almost all of which they already have.

At least the Democrats still say they are for the common people. And I do believe some of them actually are. I do believe many of them understand what it’s like to struggle in the real world. I doubt if we will ever see a Democrat publically blubbering because he had to work in his dad’s tavern while he was going to school. So when it comes to a choice between the two big parties, the decision is obvious.

Beach Bum said...

...Herbert Hoover, the last Republican, an engineer who never quite understood humanity

This point is one that really stood out for me, its easy to look only at numbers, bottomlines, and profit but none of that means a damn when kids are going hungry and can't get any help when they are sick.

Yeah, Obama and many democrats have pissed me off on how they have conducted business these last two years but I have to find some fault with the mass of people that largely evaporated after obama was elected.

The tea baggers can cheer for their tens of thousands they can moblize for stupid marches to Washington but the day Obama took office we had millions in DC. If that group had shoved a fire under the asses of the elected officials and kept it there I believe things would be very different right now.

S.W. Anderson said...

What a terrific post, and that excerpt is excellent. That's what Democrats used to sound like, back when they were Roosevelt and Truman Democrats.

I'm feeling disgusted and discouraged right now. It's no doubt intensified by the weather and some other things. But any way I slice it, Obama is beyond disappointing. Even if he were to come out and say: OK, I wanted to get elected so I laid it on too thick about having a progressive agenda. Still, I got some stuff done . . ." it still wouldn't explain his unique bargaining approach. Which is to give up the main, big things the other side wants before the bargaining begins and hope the other side will be nice when the dealing starts. And then keep doing that same stupid thing despite the fact that it never, EVER works.

I'm beginning to wonder if Obama is a GOP plant. You know, the wing nuts might've concluded after Bush's poll numbers went lower than any modern president's, that the only way to control the White House this time is with a mole. So they approached Obama, suggesting he become a DINO president. Then the Republicans gave him inept John McCain and Sarah Palin to run against, to make damn sure he won. And now, he's greasing the skids for Republicans at every turn.

OK, that sounds far fetched, but stranger things have happened.

Kulkuri said...

I can prove Obama wasn't born in Kenya. They know how to bargain and barter over there. They don't give everything away before the other guy even opens his mouth.

That excerpt was great and just shows that nothing has changed in all these years.

libhom said...

Sadly, the Democrats also are destroying our freedoms and our economy. People need to fight both of the major parties and the crooked politicians in them.

Tom Harper said...

Great excerpt, and excellent summary of the country's national mindset during the '30s and '40s. (Based on things I've read; I'm not THAT old.)

"Pre-compromise," LOL. That's exactly what Obama does. He compromises before he compromises, and then he compromises again. Sort of like that song by Sublime, "I smoke two joints before I smoke two joints, and then I smoke two more."

Dave Dubya said...

Rick,
I'm afraid what is obvious and clear is only so to those with an open and inquisitive mind. Too many Americans are beguiled by the corporate media's shameless pandering to the Right and dismissive attitude toward the Left. We ALWAYS hear more about, and from, the Quitter Tundra Twit in Lipstick than we do from Bernie Sanders and Dennis Kucinich.

And this is not even factoring in talk radio and FOX(R) indoctrination. The Right dominates the media and the message.

Beach,
Good point. Apathy, along with misinformation, is the Right's most powerful weapon.

SW,
Obama is merely another corporatist pretending to be a populist. Nobody gets near the White House without first demonstrating their loyalty to Big Money. The US Presidency is available for company men only.

Kulkuri,
I'm afraid the excerpt only proves you can fool half the people all the time. They just have to confuse some others enough to tip the balance of power.

Libhom,
Yes, sadly the Democrats are almost as much of the problem as Republicans. As much as they deserve to go down, we all don't deserve to go with them.

Dave Dubya said...

Tom,
I'm afraid we need to coin new words to get a handle on the madness. Something tells me Sublime would make far better senators than most Democrats. Power and inflated egos are far more dangerous intoxicants than nature's kind plant could ever be.

Anonymous said...

I NAM WE SAID WE GATTA DO WHAT QWE GATTA DO. LIKE THE WW-2 GUYS. ITS NOT LIKE WE OUR THEY COULD STOP AND GET OFF.

Anonymous said...

ALL THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY LOST ITS GUTS WHEN THE COLLAGE BOYS KICKED LABOR OUT. The collage boys worry about being liked, they think that if they give in the cons will dance around the maypole with them. Labor would push back. Before they were done away with for not having class. Most of the Democrats never backed Obama when he wanted to act.

Anonymous said...

“Republicans take care of big money, for big money takes care of them.” - Will Rogers

Anonymous said...

Washington politicians have blind accounts that are run without any contack with the owner. SURE, right! . Way back in 70s or early 80s a left wing muckraking magazine looked into those innocent blind accounts. They found the right before a bill to do or buy something was passed the blind account of the person voting on it brout stock in the company. People who were not rich made millions in a few years. Of course that vast, evil liberal media jumped right on it. Well no, it died fast with no fallow up. Funny there has still been no more news about them.

Anonymous said...

The Republicans believe that the power of government should be used
first of all to help the rich and the privileged in the country.
With them, property, wealth, comes first. The Democrats believe that
the power of government should be used to give the common man more
protection and a chance to make a living. With us the people come
first. Harry S Truman

Beekeepers Apprentice said...

Dave, you pretty much summed up my sentiments. The democrats may be pretty spineless these days, but the republicans still rule the "I got mine screw you" roost, and I can't abide by their self-imposed ignorance and denial of reality.

Dave Dubya said...

Anonymous,
Good points. The Dems lost their courage, and their souls, when they started cashing in from the same corporate money men as Republicans. They still pretend to care for most of us, while the Guardians Of Plutocracy show open contempt.

Bee,
It's not like we are forced to vote for the lesser evil so much as we are forced to vote against the worst evil.

LORD TRUTH 101 said...

It took a depression to get America's eyes opened to the disaster of republican economics.

It was bad in 2008 and a big poertion of America forgot.

I'm afraid it may take an Obama loss and four more years of republican bungling and another depression for those that forgot the mess Bush left to remember the next one.

Dave Dubya said...

Truth,
The trouble is when the collapse comes the Right will blame it all on Obama. Their dominance of corporate media will insure the short memories of their voters will be "fairly unbalanced".

American fascism will continue to scapegoat the "usual suspects", non-whites, liberals, unions, educators, artists, and all those other commie hippies.

I'm afraid the Rand Paul thug's headstomping incident is a preview of our coming right wing neo-feudal society.

When the camps are built, they will NOT be filled with Beck, Limbaugh and FOX(R) fans.

Weaseldog said...

I can relate to the principles that you argue for, but in practice I have a problem.

I think that most of the Washington level Republicans and Democrats that appear on the ballots in my district, should be spending the rest of their lives in prison, not elected office.

Is it morally correct for me to vote for a politician, that I firmly believe is a war criminal, that should be spending their days in a maximum security prison?

Is voting for the 'brand', worth the crime, of supporting a war criminal?

Dave Dubya said...

Wease,
Good questions. By some standards most of the federal level politicians are either war criminals, or at least, abet war criminals. Since the US is a corporatist empire they almost all share some guilt. I've never voted for an incumbant President for this reason.

They are also mostly all guilty of waging class warfare on behalf of the economic elite. Alas, only we "lunatic fringe" types are conscious of this.

Bottom line is I think generally the choice between a D and R is clear. The R will always be worse, more people will die, and more money will trickle up. Stopping the worst from getting power, while morally compromised, is still the better alrernative.

Maybe the real moral failure on our part is remaining in the US as citizens of empire. Soon we won't even have a choice. I may live to regret not moving to the islands and joining a reggae band. ;-)

Weaseldog said...

I guess it isn't clear to me that the Red Shirts are worse than the Blue Shirts.

Did the Republicans invade two countries to promote war profiteering because it's what they wanted to do (of course they did), but because their owners wanted it, and picked them for the job?

Likewise, is Obama (A gung-ho, slaughtering psychopath himself), simply chosen to play the current role to burn out the Democratic Party? It sure looks that way.

It seems to me that the citizens of the USA are being manipulated and given the illusion of free will, where there isn't any. Both sides have carefully selected candidates, hand picked to do a job.

I don't even know that the vote really matters. We know the ballot machines are constantly getting hacked. Who's to say that they ever accurately measure the will of the people? If the press gives us the impression that a candidate will win, and does, how do we know that the vote wasn't rigged?

From this perspective with my doubts, I believe it is unethical and immoral to demonstrate my support for this system by voting. This is not the democracy the WWII generation fought and often times died for. It's now a criminal enterprise and to pretend that it is legitimate, doesn't honor the memories of the fallen.

Just my humble opinion.

Dave Dubya said...

Wease,
It is absolutely a corrupt and rigged political system. Very few politicians are worth voting for. Most are worth voting against. The choices of candidates are hardly ever good, but voting is all we have left. I think it's a matter of "use it or lose it". The last vestige of democracy we have is the opportunity for ballot proposals such as the ones for medicinal cannabis. I feel that alone should get us to the polls to exercise our vanishing rights as best we can.

I think I can fairly say things would have turned out very differently had democracy prevailed in the 2000 election, or if a few hundred more Florida voters were attentive enough to be suspicious of the aristocratic Bush Dynasty.

Weaseldog said...

Dave said... "but voting is all we have left."

I'm still seeing the 'vote' as a means of legitimizing an immoral and corrupt system.

Since at the Federal level we only have traitors to choose from, any vote cast, will be for a traitor. And every cast will then be used against us.

It seems to me that voting is a way of proclaiming that we approve of the system. If we could cast a vote 'against' a candidate, then the voting system could become a legitimate means of expression.

Ten years ago, I thought as you do. Over the last decade, I've been finding it increasingly difficult to see how being a participant in a corrupt system is ethical.

Dave Dubya said...

Wease,
I don't think voting legitimizes the corrupt system as much as the Supreme Court's actions have. I suppose it could be argued that not voting may also have a corrupting effect too.

And corrupt as the federal level may be, we still need to vote on local government ballots to better serve our immediate interests. I think my vote for millage increases for education, Sheriff's department and the library makes a positive difference in the quality of life for most of us.

Weaseldog said...

Dave, my beefs is primarily aimed at the Federal and state systems.

I believe it's just as a easy to hack the machines for local elections, but the difference there is that your elected officials are your neighbors.

Congressman in contrast, can live in Washington year round and avoid his or her constituents. They just need to maintain a residence in their district. They don't actually have to visit it.

Weaseldog said...

I'm not sure how abstaining from participating in a corrupt system, is a form of corruption.

Is not participating in a bank robbery a form of bank robbery?

Dave Dubya said...

Apathy and low voter turnout always keeps the Republicans in power. The Guardians Of Plutocracy openly oppose democracy and high voter participation. That along with their deception, dishonesty, war mongering, and coddling the rich makes them the primary force of evil to eradicate. The Democrats must be dealt with as well, but I still see them as the secondary evil.

If the bottom line is more voters mean less Republican corporatism and fascism, then I will vote.

I truly think that more Americans voting will mean less Right Wing influence and control. The Right recognizes this, the left should too.

"I don't want everybody to vote. Elections are not won by a majority of the people. They never have been from the beginning of our country and they are not now. As a matter of fact, our leverage in the elections quite candidly goes up as the voting populace goes down.”– Paul Weyrich

In 1973, with the financial backing of Coors, Weyrich and Ed Feulner founded the Heritage Foundation as a think tank to counterbalance prevailing sentiment on taxation and regulation, which they considered to be anti-business.

Rick said...

Dave and Weaseldog: You are both making some excellent points. I wish I could believe that Obama's tendency to cave before every battle was a sign weakness or poor negotiation skills. Unfortunatley, I believe he is much more intelligent than that. That is sad because that means he belongs to the same pimp as McConnell and Boehner, pure and simple. They all do what their sugar daddy wants them to do.

On the other hand Dave, you do make an excellent point. The guys that openly want to destroy all chances for the peasants to survive still spend a LOT of money and time working to prevent ordinary people from voting. They must fear our votes for some reason. That is why, while I don't trust the integrity of the system, and am disgusted by both choices most to the time, I continue to show up. But I completely understand those who don't.

Weaseldog said...

Dave, I think where you and I differ is that you see the Republican and Democratic leaderships being comprised of fundamentally different people with different goals.

I believe that the leadership of both parties are essentially the same people with the same goals, working for the same people. they are identical in thought and deed in every respect that matters.

Think of them as a theater troop. They are actors competing for parts, in a scripted play. Some play heroes and some play villains. but the script, not their own volition determines what they do, while in the limelight.

This is how I've come to see them. Obama is a fascist who's role in this was pre-decided to serve as a fall guy, to shift public opinion back to the actors who openly preach a fascist agenda. This will once again give the illusion of public support for fascism, while giving the media ammunition to preach how real liberties, rights, the goals of humanism and democracy are failed ideals.

I know you remember how in 2007, I was writing about how Obama was going to continue Bush's legacy. How he is essentially a caretaker for the job until public opinion can be molded for Republican support again.

I don't have any reason to believe that our votes get accurately counted. there is no way to know. The new machines haven't made physical recounts possible for years. It is impossible to verify the results after an election, by design.

If I'm right then elections are predetermined anyway. And this is how some precincts end up with many more votes than voters. And we've seen that happen in favor of both parties at one time or another. If we have a predetermined election, and the voters can't influence the outcome, then the importance of the media can't be overstated. They must project the results and justify them in advance, so that the public won't question them.

Remmeber how before Bush, Exit Polls were very accurate. Now they are almost always wrong? The media says that everyone lies about who they voted for, or can't remember. and maybe they are right. Maybe Americans have lost a significant quantity of IQ points since Bush took office. Is there something in the bottled water?

OT a bit...

A friend was telling me recently about a conversation he had with a young lady. He was talking about the Mayans, and how they accomplished so much, yet still embraced human sacrifice. This young Lady said, "It's the god-damned democrats and the dumbing down of the public school system that has ruined the Mayans."

My friend said that was the end of the conversation for him...

Weaseldog said...

Dave, I think where you and I differ is that you see the Republican and Democratic leaderships being comprised of fundamentally different people with different goals.

I believe that the leadership of both parties are essentially the same people with the same goals, working for the same people. they are identical in thought and deed in every respect that matters.

Think of them as a theater troop. They are actors competing for parts, in a scripted play. Some play heroes and some play villains. but the script, not their own volition determines what they do, while in the limelight.

This is how I've come to see them. Obama is a fascist who's role in this was pre-decided to serve as a fall guy, to shift public opinion back to the actors who openly preach a fascist agenda. This will once again give the illusion of public support for fascism, while giving the media ammunition to preach how real liberties, rights, the goals of humanism and democracy are failed ideals.

I know you remember how in 2007, I was writing about how Obama was going to continue Bush's legacy. How he is essentially a caretaker for the job until public opinion can be molded for Republican support again.

I don't have any reason to believe that our votes get accurately counted. there is no way to know. The new machines haven't made physical recounts possible for years. It is impossible to verify the results after an election, by design.

If I'm right then elections are predetermined anyway. And this is how some precincts end up with many more votes than voters. And we've seen that happen in favor of both parties at one time or another. If we have a predetermined election, and the voters can't influence the outcome, then the importance of the media can't be overstated. They must project the results and justify them in advance, so that the public won't question them.

Remmeber how before Bush, Exit Polls were very accurate. Now they are almost always wrong? The media says that everyone lies about who they voted for, or can't remember. and maybe they are right. Maybe Americans have lost a significant quantity of IQ points since Bush took office. Is there something in the bottled water?

OT a bit...

A friend was telling me recently about a conversation he had with a young lady. He was talking about the Mayans, and how they accomplished so much, yet still embraced human sacrifice. This young Lady said, "It's the god-damned democrats and the dumbing down of the public school system that has ruined the Mayans."

My friend said that was the end of the conversation for him...

Weaseldog said...

Dave, I think where you and I differ is that you see the Republican and Democratic leaderships being comprised of fundamentally different people with different goals.

I believe that the leadership of both parties are essentially the same people with the same goals, working for the same people. they are identical in thought and deed in every respect that matters.

Think of them as a theater troop. They are actors competing for parts, in a scripted play. Some play heroes and some play villains. but the script, not their own volition determines what they do, while in the limelight.

This is how I've come to see them. Obama is a fascist who's role in this was pre-decided to serve as a fall guy, to shift public opinion back to the actors who openly preach a fascist agenda. This will once again give the illusion of public support for fascism, while giving the media ammunition to preach how real liberties, rights, the goals of humanism and democracy are failed ideals.

I know you remember how in 2007, I was writing about how Obama was going to continue Bush's legacy. How he is essentially a caretaker for the job until public opinion can be molded for Republican support again.

continued...

Weaseldog said...

I don't have any reason to believe that our votes get accurately counted. there is no way to know. The new machines haven't made physical recounts possible for years. It is impossible to verify the results after an election, by design.

If I'm right then elections are predetermined anyway. And this is how some precincts end up with many more votes than voters. And we've seen that happen in favor of both parties at one time or another. If we have a predetermined election, and the voters can't influence the outcome, then the importance of the media can't be overstated. They must project the results and justify them in advance, so that the public won't question them.

Remmeber how before Bush, Exit Polls were very accurate. Now they are almost always wrong? The media says that everyone lies about who they voted for, or can't remember. and maybe they are right. Maybe Americans have lost a significant quantity of IQ points since Bush took office. Is there something in the bottled water?

OT a bit...

A friend was telling me recently about a conversation he had with a young lady. He was talking about the Mayans, and how they accomplished so much, yet still embraced human sacrifice. This young Lady said, "It's the god-damned democrats and the dumbing down of the public school system that has ruined the Mayans."

My friend said that was the end of the conversation for him...

Weaseldog said...

Jeez, sorry about the multiple posts, I kept getting a URI too large error...

T. Paine said...

Damn, Dubya! On the off-chance that Weasel is wrong and our votes really do still matter, don't encourage him to vote! :)

Weaseldog said...

T. Paine, don't worry, the Fascists are winning, and there's no sign they'll be losing ground for a decade or more. Your agenda is safe.

You're gonna get the government you want.

T. Paine said...

Oh, I agree that fascists are indeed winning, but they are NOT the government I want nor are they the ones I voted for, sir.

Dave Dubya said...

Rick,
Even Republican Ron Paul openly acknowledges Obama is a corporatist, and NOT a socialist.


TP,
You voted for Dick Cheney, didn't you?

The fact that Limbaugh, Beck, and FOX(R) continue to convince gullible Americans that Obama is a Marxist Muslim bodes a dark future for the country. The fact that every person who buys that crap also voted is why Republicans won so many seats. The Guardians Of Plutocracy understand Orwell. Ignorance is strength.

Wease,
You're right. Democracy has been pretty much dismantled. The fascists are winning thanks to their dominance of corporate media, Diebold, and Right Wing cronies on the Supreme Court. Fascists have always lied and demonized opponents as Communists. The Reich Wingers mentioned above are doing the same thing as German and Italian fascists did last century. And since political "free speech" is now only granted to Big Money, our voices are being shouted down. This is why I will vote. It's the last voice we have.

T. Paine said...

Dubya, I did indeed vote for Cheney and despite his faults we would have been far better served as a nation if he had been the one at the top of the ticket.

Missed parrying with you, buddy! ;)

Jolly Roger said...

It amazes me that the "Greatest Generation" managed to raise the "Lamest Generation" of self-entitled bigots who want it all, but don't want to have to PAY for anything.

The sacrifices of that generation were wasted on their children, who are directly responsible for the destruction of this country.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
Cheney is the snarling authoritarian face that "served" us two wars and more debt than we can handle. He "served" us the identity of a covert operative because she was married to someone who called him on lies. He "served" us a secret crony-written enrgy policy. He "served" us into fascism more than anyone before.

This American Heritage definition fits Cheney like a glove: Fascism n. A philosophy or system of government that advocates or exercises a dictatorship of the extreme right, typically through the merging of state and business leadership, together with an ideology of belligerent nationalism.

Even if his lies were true, he still "served" us fascism. Obama has only abetted it by "looking forward" instead of investigating the lead-up to war in Iraq.

I imagine in your beliefs, the fascsim is in health care reform.

It's good we both share a healthy distrust of Democrats. However unquestioning belief in Republicans, FOX(R), Limbaugh, Beck, and Palin calling Dems Marxists is the slippery slope to totalitarianism. History teaches us this. It is the same tactic as the Nazis used.

They lie. Did you learn Code Pink does not "support the murder of American troops"?

I'm also pretty sure Obama is not the anti-Christ as well. He is a corporatist, and that places him closer to fascism than Marxism on the scale. It is more than clear the GOP cares only for plutocratic rule by the economic elite. It is their mission. All evidence indicates this. It ain't democracy, and it ain't a republic. The Democratic and Republican parties are deceptively named. We have a primary corporatist party and a secondary corporatist party. That's it.

I'll tell you once again. They lie.

Dave Dubya said...

JR,
It is sad, and some WWII vets have openly admitted while they defeated the Nazis, fascsim survived.

"Your papers, please!" "Step into the scanner!" "Spread your legs!" "You're electronic messages are to be under surveillance without court order!"

This was not the America we had before Bush/Cheney.

Rick said...

T.Paine: I guess I missed something. I thought Cheney was at the top of the ticket! He was the guy they needded to protect when they believed the country was under attack. He was the guy that hid in some "undisclosed bunker" while the expendable guy went around in public and told everyone to go shopping. He was the guy that ordered the airforce to shoot down the third plane - then cleared it with Bush as an afterthought. Jeeze I never thought I would find myself defending Bush!?

T. Paine said...

Wow. First, I must say that Jolly Roger wrote a comment with which I wholeheartedly agree. This is a red letter day, indeed! :)

Next, one of those two wars was in the attempt to capture and kill those responsible for the unprovoked killing of 3000 innocent American civilians. To let that go unanswered would have been a seriously dangerous foreign policy decision, not to mention a travesty of justice. Do you advocate us not having gone after the Taliban and al Quaeda, Dave?

The Iraq war was done with an international coalition based on many sources, including international sources of intelligence regarding WMD's. To this day there are weapons still unaccounted for there.

I cannot dispute the debt issue, and indeed agree with you on much of this point.

As for Valerie Plame, she was outed by Richard Armitage in the State Department and not by Dick Cheney, Scooter Libby, or anyone in Cheney's chain of command. This is a fact that the witch-hunting special prosecuter Fitzgerald knew PRIOR to the beginning of his investigation. It was nothing other than a political issue. As for her husband, Wilson is a lying piece of ...... that was thoroughly debunked in his lies.

You keep assuming that I "believe" all that is said on Foxnews, Limbaugh, etc. While I do indeed believe most things there, I also am sufficiently critical and skeptical to do my own research on controversial issues, and I always go to the other side to find out what their strongest arguments are too before making judgements typically.

By the way, I acknowledge that the one sign of Code Pink's was indeed a forgery. That doesn't account for the other two signs nor some of their typical rhetoric that seems to hold common cause with the statement on that forged sign.

Lastly, I don't think Obama is a Muslim or the anti-Christ. I think that his sentiments are largely derived from his father's anti-colonialist attitudes, and he does indeed embrace elements of Marxism. I understand your point of him being a "corporatist" as well, however, I suspect that is simply a means to his larger socialistic goals.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
I'm glad you at least acknowlege the lie about Code Pink. Would you believe me if I told you there are even more lies out there in Right Wingistan?

“Those responsible for the unprovoked killing of 3000 innocent American civilians” were killed along with their victims. It was a suicide attack, remember? As for bin-Laden, it was Bush who allowed him to escape. “I’m not too concerned about him” was Bush’s dismissive attitude after his failure. Remember that? You assume the invasion and endless occupation of Afghanistan was the only possible measure. It was not.

But with fascists at the helm it was inevitable, as with the invasion of Iraq on false pretenses. “To this day there are weapons still unaccounted for there.” You are seeking proof of a negative. The fact is this: to this day the weapons are still not found. If they were there they would have been recovered. Bush tried to lie about “biological trailers” when he said we “found the weapons of mass destruction”. Yet another lie for you to explain. I told you they lie, didn’t I? Your beliefs do not make the lies true any more than belief in Santa makes him exist.

Another of your beliefs seems to be the notion that a special prosecutor discovering why a covert operative was outed is a “witch hunt”. Do you believe that should have been ignored? Was she “fair game” as Cheney said? What exactly made it a “witch hunt” other than the fact Republicans were guilty of treason for political revenge.

Tell me, exactly who “debunked” Wilson? Was if FOX (R)? How about Rush or Beck? Whoever you imagine it to be, I’m sure it was Republicans with a political agenda. Even members of the Bush Administration admitted the error of including the “16 words” in his State of the Union speech.

Fleischer: Now, we've long acknowledged -- and this is old news, we've said this repeatedly -- that the information on yellow cake did, indeed, turn out to be incorrect.
Tenet: These 16 words should never have been included in the text written for the President.
Rice: What we've said subsequently is, knowing what we now know, that some of the Niger documents were apparently forged, we wouldn't have put this in the President's speech -- but that's knowing what we know now.

“Knowing what we know now” was learned from Wilson’s fact finding trip to Niger. From factcheck.org:
"Wilson reported that he had met with Niger's former Prime Minister Ibrahim Mayaki, who said that in June 1999 he was asked to meet with a delegation from Iraq to discuss "expanding commercial relations" between the two countries. The subject of uranium sales never actually came up in the meeting, according to what Wilson later told the Senate Intelligence Committee staff. He quoted Mayaki as saying that when he met with the Iraqis he was wary of discussing any trade issues at all because Iraq remained under United Nations sanctions. According to Wilson, Mayaki steered the conversation away from any discussion of trade.”

So again, who “debunked” Wilson?

It was not only Armitage who was guilty. As for Libby, he was convicted of obstructing justice. He was not pardoned. He is guilty. He took the conviction to protect Cheney from his treason.

"There is a cloud over the vice president . . . And that cloud remains because this defendant obstructed justice," Fitzgerald said.

"There is a cloud over the White House. Don't you think the FBI and the grand jury and the American people are entitled to straight answers?" Fitzgerald asked the jury.

Libby, Fitzgerald continued, "stole the truth from the justice system."

A crime was committed and you call the investigation a “witch hunt”. Fair game is fair game, if Cheney says so, eh? How about Assange? Since he’s no republican, I bet you’re ready to hang him.

One more time. A corporatist is not a Marxist. A Marxist is not a corporatist. Not ever.

Jolly Roger said...

You do realize, T., that Chimpy, Cheney, Newt, and the rest of those bums are members of the "lamest generation," right? :)

Weaseldog said...

T. Paine said, "Next, one of those two wars was in the attempt to capture and kill those responsible for the unprovoked killing of 3000 innocent American civilians. To let that go unanswered would have been a seriously dangerous foreign policy decision, not to mention a travesty of justice. Do you advocate us not having gone after the Taliban and al Quaeda, Dave?"

Well, actually the hijackers were from Saudi Arabia and Egypt. They had no ties to Afghanistan. They weren't Taliban. Tjhey weren't Al Queda. They were funded by Saudi Royals.

We needed to attack Afghanistan because the Taliban wanted too much money from Ken Lay for the pipeline lease rights. Dick Cheney had a problem with this because he expected Haliburton to get some of the contracts. So we attacked Afghanistan so that Dick Cheney could make a few extra bucks.

We attacked Iraq for the same reason and because Donald Rumsfield wanted a better war and there weren't enough hard targets in Afghanistan. He wanted to see shit get blowed up. Further, his money was in selling medical supplies to the military. To make lot's of money , he needed our soldiers to get wounded a lot. Luckily he was in a position to stop the Pentagon from putting armor plating on Humvees and preventing soldiers from using armored vests. Lucky him.

To this day our leaders still go and kiss the feet of the people who planned, provided training for, and financed the 9/11 attacks, in Saudi Arabia. and the taxpayer continues to buy million dollar missiles to blow up goat herders with.

T. Paine said...

Jolly, I do understand that, and I am still largely in agreement with your original statement, sir.

Weasel & Dubya, I will respond to your comments later when I have more time, gentlemen.

T. Paine said...

Joe Wilson, it was proven, lied when he said that his wife was not responsible for his getting the job to go to Niger in the first place. This was proven to be patently false as Ms. Plame's advocating for him was precisely the reason he was sent.

He lied when he said that the CIA /Bush administration did not review his written report on his findings. This was crap, as the government said they debriefed him verbally and no written report, other than the notes taken by the debriefers was given.

He lied regarding his confirmation of the forgery of the signatures of the documents given him according to government sources. The government did not disclose or give him any such documents with signatures to verify.

And most importantly, Valerie Plame's identity was leaked to Novak by Richard Armitage (a sympathizer against the Iraq war). This was a fact that was told to Special Counsel Fitzgerald on the first day of his investigation. He knew right then who the source of the leak was and yet decided to spend millions of dollars on a witch hunt to try and embarrass the Bush administration.

He managed to capture Scooter Libby in perjury charges because he misremembered incidents from years before. He was unable to get Rove or Cheney in such charges, despite Wilson's statement of how he would love to have seen "Rove frog-marched out in handcuffs" for his "actions".

It was an investigation that should have gone no further than the first day of its course if the purpose was simply to find the source of the leak. That obviously was not the purpose.

Lastly, the British government to this day stands by their intelligence regarding the yellow-cake uranimum in Niger, as do multiple senate intelligence reports.

TRUTH 101 said...

Bush press secretary Scott McClellan said there were no weapons of mas destruction in Iraq.

Bush said in his Book there were none.

So you're willing to forget about that because Iraq may or may not have tried to get yellowcake from Nigeria mr. Paine?

Or as Bush said in his pre Iraq invasion speech, "Tried to buy nuclear material from AFRICA."
Africa? I didn't know Africa was a country that sold nuclear material.


There is no shame in admitting you're wrong and trying to correct your mistakes Mr. Paine. The shame is that closed minded dupes like you seem to be continue to be a part of this WMD parade justifying an unjustifiable invasion and occupation.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
Your assertions are empty allegations without documented sources. And since your sources are ususally FOX(R), they can hardly be valid.

Please show us something referenced.

Cheney called Valerie "fair game".
Libby lied to protect Cheney and was convicted. The investigation was halted by his obstruction of justice.

These are facts. Your assertions are not founded in fact, sir.

And Truth makes a good point. Bush says there were no WMD's and you say there were. Hmmm. Care to explain that?

The Rush Blog said...

A lot of us are tired of Obama and the Democrats, with their endless capitulation and “pre-compromise” with Republicans. A lot of us are ready to give up, and it’s hard to not sympathize with those of us frustrated by politics.


I wish the entire Democratic Party would get off its butts and do something about the so-called moderates like Obama and the Clintons. Honestly. There are times I believe they should honestly call themselves Republicans.

Dave Dubya said...

Rush Blog,
Nice to see you. Unfortunately we have two right wing parties, radical Right Republicans and moderate Right Republicrats. True Democrats have been a negligible minority for decades.