Thursday, October 5, 2017

Let's Test Our Limits

We have our First Amendment Right to free speech. But it is not an absolute right. We have the intended right to a free press, to peaceful assembly and to speak to power. We don’t have the right to shout “fire” in a theatre or to threaten, libel and slander.

Like the First Amendment, the Second Amendment is also not absolute.

Most of us support some gun control or limits on Second Amendment rights. At present it is an insignificant minority that wants a total ban, along with government confiscation. It is also an insignificant minority that wants no controls or restrictions whatsoever.

Let’s dispel the notion that the Second Amendment is for waging war against the government if our candidates lose, or we don’t like some laws or leaders. Only  dangerous idiots speak of “Second Amendment remedies” in that context.

The Second Amendment’s purpose was for the people to have a militia to mobilize for protection and defense against armed threats.  Militias are now antiquated and we have law enforcement and the National Guard for citizen protection. Since the Redcoats and Geronimo are no longer active threats, that leaves only the threat of violent criminals.

While we have the right of armed self-defense against violent criminals, we should understand the need for limits. 

Most Second Amendment defenders support background checks for purchases. Most Second Amendment defenders will also support prohibiting sales to minors, the mentally ill, domestic abusers and felons.

The fact is some level of gun control is desired by most of us.

Where we differ is in the degree of gun control and regulations.

Let’s test our limits.

Should untrained civilians have the right to bear without registration:

A Nuclear Submarine?
An Aircraft Carrier?
A B1 Bomber?
An F22 Fighter?
An Abrams Tank?
An Anti-tank Rocket Launcher?
A Mortar?
A Bazooka/Rocket Propelled Grenade?
A Belt-Fed  .50 Caliber Machine Gun?
An M-6O/M240 Machine Gun?
An Automatic M-16 or AK47 rifle?
A Semi Auto M16 style  or AK47 style, convertible to automatic, with 30+ round magazine?
A Semi-Auto Rifle with 10 Round Limit magazine?
A Semi-Auto Shotgun?
A Lever or Bolt Action Rifle?
A Pump Action Shotgun?
A Semi-Auto Handgun?
A 6 round Revolver?

Since there is no documented case of self-defense that required a 30 round magazine. That is where I draw my line. 

If there were no civilian sales of large volume magazines and military style weapons easily converted into machine guns, there would be many more survivors from the Las Vegas Massacre and other mass shootings. 

For all guns up to that threshold I would support mandatory background checks, registration, and safety certification for all future sales. There is no sane reason for weapons to be easier to obtain than a driver’s license. There is no sane reason for guns to be irresponsibly owned, stored or operated by the wrong people. 

I totally get the argument there is no sane reason for even having weapons in the home. States and homes with the highest per-capita gun ownership suffer proportionally higher deaths from guns. An armed society is not a polite society.

Practical sane steps are needed. Otherwise the Second Amendment is little more than a suicide pact and prescription for tragedy for the nation.


Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "Practical sane steps are needed."

Practicality, nor rationality, are strong suits of the conservative mind. As you've said several times here and on Tom Degan's blog, their worldview is one of "what ifs" and only distinctly opposing alternatives. There are no solutions halfway or midpoint. It's a black & white world for them, with never any shades of grey.

For example, economically there's only a choice between laissez-faire capitalism and communism -- there's nothing acceptable bound by the two extremes. (Indeed, most don't recognize what we have now isn't even included on this continuum.)

It's the same with their interpretation of the Second Amendment -- it's all or none, with nothing in between.

Dave Dubya said...

That is the difference between the conservative and liberal mindset that impedes discussion and prevents compromise. Yes, it's them, not us.

I presented this information for Mr. Paine at his blog:

Time for a Fact-check:

There’s a fairly strong relationship between the rate of gun-related deaths (murders, suicides, accidents) and the percentage of households that own guns: the fewer households with guns, the fewer gun deaths. ..People in states where many households have guns aren’t safer, they’re more at risk. (This is also true on the household level) American Journal of Epidemiology, 11/15/04.)

People with access to more guns tend to kill more people—with guns. States with higher gun ownership rates have higher gun murder rates—as much as 114 percent higher than states with lower gun ownership rates.

• A recent study looking at 30 years of homicide data found that for every one percent increase in a state’s gun ownership rate, there is a nearly one percent increase in its firearm homicide rate.

• Gun death rates are generally lower in states with restrictions such as safe-storage requirements or assault-weapons bans.

Sources: Injury Prevention and gun ownership (British Medical Association) and Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (deaths)

Mr. Paine cannot accept these sources for some reason. But he assured me he can do better.

I will make sure to provide a bunch of research that refutes your stats

This reminds me of the time his little buddy told us, "When you present facts, I will dispute them".

It's how they tick.

ArchieBunkerNYC said...

"We don’t have the right to shout “fire” in a theatre or to threaten, libel and slander."

But lets test our limits of the first amendment when we make up stories like the Trump Russia Collusion canard to try to bring down a President we don't like when we lose an election we were supposed to win. amirite?

Dave Dubya said...


Thank you for you concern for our First Amendment.

Trump abused that right when he pushed his racist lies and birtherism that emboldened his base of "fine people" marching with Nazis and Klansmen. (Did you save your Tiki torch?)

Here's a test for the First Amendment from the hypocrite and liar who swore an oath to the Constitution:

With all of the Fake News coming out of NBC and the Networks, at what point is it appropriate to challenge their License? Bad for country!... Network news has become so partisan, distorted and fake that licenses must be challenged and, if appropriate, revoked.

There's your intent to intimidate, and a direct threat to a free press and the First Amendment. (Note to "not partisan" pro-Trump FOX(R)...IOKIYAR.)

We'd love it if you could show us one of those "made up stories" from the press.

So why is it so many of Trump's henchmen lied about contacts with Russians? Seems they are the ones making up stories, like lies about "adoption" discussions with Russians offering dirt on Hillary.

And just wait for the real story when Mueller "follows the money" and finds more crony connections with Russia and what Trump wants hidden in his tax returns.

Collusion isn't the story, nor a crime, but it happened. Boasting about firing Comey to shut down an FBI investigation, with only Russians present in the Oval Office does reek of obstruction of justice...and borscht.

Dave Dubya said...

Maybe you can help Stivic find one of those "made up stories" about Russia. He can't seem to find one either. No wonder he wanted to go off topic and talk about Hillary.

Maybe you can tell us about Trump's attempt to have a Trump building in Moscow while running for president.

Or would you also rather talk about Hillary?

I have to wonder why you two don't want to discuss the topic of the post... You're not trolls, are you?

Dave Dubya said...

"You're not trolls, are you?" I asked.

Of course not. Silly me, using the plural noun.

Sure enough, "Out-of-character Stivic" had to dump a taunt about the post not being about Hillary and her husband. (Even Willie seems like an alter boy compared to you-know-who.)

Jefferson's Guardian said...

ArchieBunkerNYC: "But lets test our limits of the first amendment when we make up stories like the Trump Russia Collusion canard to try to bring down a President we don't like..."

As far as Trump's collusion with Russia, there hasn't been anything proven to be "made up". That's only your conservative tagline -- or very wishful thinking. All the revelations since over a year ago point to otherwise. As a matter of fact, this is exactly what Robert Mueller and his team of criminal investigators is sifting through right now.

Have patience. You'll have to wait for the explosive news just like everybody else. One thing's for sure -- it'll create the tsunami that shakes the pillars from our supposed democratic foundation, and takes the Dow Jones down to historical lows.

Buy Bitcoin while you still can. It's worth more than gold.

Dave Dubya said...


Imagine how morally, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt one needs to be in order to parrot Trump and the Republican Party.

Their fascistic cult is succeeding in their goals. Human suffering and death will most certainly result from their reckless destruction and abuse of power on behalf of their elite owners. The Kochs "didn't support" Trump the candidate, but they are totally in bed with Trump the tyrant.

I've never been so glad to be old as I am. I deeply pity the young today. Unless they wake up, they are in for a long slide into totalitarianism, war, and austerity, aka MAGA.

"Good Americans" of today are no different than "Good Germans" in the 1930's.

The irony is their black rifles will be useless in regaining our rights, prosperity and freedom. Most likely they will be used against the scapegoats of fascism. The sociopath's targets at a country music concert was an aberration. Liberals and Blacks have been in season for some time now.

Dave Dubya said...


That's it! They are looking at the world through their cult "asshole goggles".

All the deplorables from "very fine people" marching with Nazis, to the racists, authoritarians and idiots raging at Trump "Hate Rallies" represent the subspecies of Angry White Con-servatives infecting our nation, with their toxic hatred and stupidity.

America aint so great anymore. They have proven it.

More human suffering shall ensue, I'm afraid. Not that Trump and his cult care. They revel in the pain and misery of those they hate, who just happen to be most Americans.

Jefferson's Guardian said...

Dave Dubya: "That's it! They are looking at the world through their cult 'asshole goggles'."

Of course. That's also why they don't smell the putrid stench of their cult, as we do. They're surrounded and consumed by the nauseating foulness of their own making. It's not even apparent to them anymore.

"...with their toxic hatred and stupidity."

It's all a fecal bloodbath with their kind. The more toxicity they can create, the longer their survival rate. Just like Clostridium difficile, the alt-right's infection rate has been rising dramatically in recent years.