Saturday, January 8, 2011

Second Amendment Remedies



I had just finished reading the article about Arizona’s Republican Governor Jan (Severed Heads) Brewer and her new death panel induced fatality. Another transplant patient had died after being removed from the waiting list for surgery. The good news, I suppose, for the Republicans, is the rich didn’t have to see any of their tax dollars going towards saving a life.

If that wasn’t enough to further repulse all decent people from that backward state, the news of the latest horror will. As I finished the article of this Arizona tragedy, I heard my wife call from downstairs. She was in the living room watching TV and said, “You need to see this.”

There was the picture of Arizona Representative Gabrielle Giffords (D) over the crawl about a shooting in Tucson. The representative was having an open meeting with constituents when a gunman shot her point blank in the head. He also shot and killed several others in the parking lot.

“Not again,” I groaned. “Will this right wing violence ever end?”

I knew the answer before the question was spoken. No, it will not end. And in all likelihood it will continue, and get much worse.

We’ve heard the hate from American fascists for some time now. We’ve seen the results of the anger and fear incited by FOX(R) and Beck and Limbaugh. Oh, sure, they promptly disavow violence all right; AFTER someone gets killed. Then they swiftly return to the same lying hateful rhetoric.

In 2008 Jim David Adkisson committed two counts of murder in a church in Tennessee. He also wounded six others at the Tennessee Valley Unitarian Universalist Church in Knoxville. Police found books and material in his home by Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Savage, and Bill O’Reilly. He wrote a note urging others to kill liberals.

On April 4, 2009 Richard Poplawski, the sociopathic conservative without a conscience, murdered three cops in Pittsburgh. Poplawski’s racist head was filled with crap like Beck’s poisonous lies about Obama coming to take his guns away from him.

On June 10, 2009 James Von Brunn, another conservative, became the Holocaust Memorial Museum gunman.

Then there was conservative Scott Roeder, the bomb making assassin, who killed Doctor Tiller (“The baby killer”, courtesy of O’Reilly.) in church.

Charles Wilson -- a Washington man sentenced to prison for repeatedly threatening to kill Sen. Patty Murray (D-WA) after she voted in favor of health care reform legislation -- said Wilson's "fears were grown and fostered by [Glenn] Beck's persuasive personality.”

We remember Byron Williams on his Glenn Beck inspired mission to gun down Tides Foundation staff. How did Beck react after this? He attacked the Tides Foundation, of course, accusing the progressive institution of subverting churches, turning children against their parents and spreading "anti-human" theories.

Tides Foundation CEO Drummond Pike wrote a pleading letter to FOX(R) advertisers. This is how it concluded:

I respectfully request that you bring this matter of your company's sponsorship of hate speech leading to violence to the attention of your fellow directors as soon as possible. I believe no responsible company should advertise on Fox News due to its recent and on-going deplorable conduct.

While we may agree to disagree about the role our citizens and our government should play in promoting social justice and the common good, there should be no disagreement about what constitutes integrity and professionalism and responsibility in discourse - even when allowing for and encouraging contending diverse opinions intelligently argued. This is not a partisan issue. It's an American issue. No one, left, right or center, wants to see another Oklahoma City.

The next "assassin" may succeed, and if so, there will be blood on many hands. The choice is yours.

The next assassin has succeeded, in yet another act of Reich Wing terrorism. These are the fruits of American fascism. This slaughter is directly influenced by FOX(R) and their long list of fascist Republicans like Sarah (re-load) Palin, Sharon (Second Amendment Remedies) Angle, Glenn (Obama’s a racist) Beck, and Rush (Liberals hate America) Limbaugh.

The list of fascists goes on, and so grows the list of killers who are fed lies and hate fueled propaganda by the American Fourth Reich.

We don’t know yet any details of the assassin/terrorist, but what do you think the chances are he is another toxic tea drunk viewer of “fair and balanced” FOX(R)?

56 comments:

Distributorcap said...

the door has swung open - the blood is ALL over beck, angel, brewer and ESPECIALLY palin..........

this is what they wanted -

Vigilante said...

Is this not a smoking gun for open and/or concealed carry? And especially at political Rallies? All those in favor of the rights of unregulated militias to bear arms should get in line to wash innocent blood from their hands. It is time for us, as a nation, to take up the unconstitutionality of standing un-regulated militias.

John Myste said...

Mark Twain has always been my favorite American author, even before he posted his autobiography. I love the quote atop your page.

Did you research all of these things and find them or do you just remember? I need to stop taking breaks where I pay no attention to news. I would have loved to have been armed with this data a couple of weeks ago when discussing liberals with a conservative who latched onto a composition fallacy and would not let go.

P.S. Not you Mr. Paine. You are innocent this time.

T. Paine said...

"We don’t know yet any details of the assassin/terrorist, but what do you think the chances are he is another toxic tea drunk viewer of “fair and balanced” FOX(R)?"

Glad to see you are waiting for the facts before judging, Dave.

Do you suppose, if this murderer does indeed turn out to be some un-hinged conservative, that we could stop this problem of violence by silencing all conservative talk (the first amendment be damned) and outlawing any firearms from private ownership (the second amendment be damned!)?

Do you suppose that if Arizona were as liberal as Berkeley and never a conservative word was heard within the state and all guns were banned that this still could not have happened?

Do you really think having another gun control law would have stopped this evil from being perpetrated by this idiot? Or perhaps do you honestly believe that he would have been wishing to commit the murder but was unwilling to break the law to acquire a black-market hand gun?

Dave Dubya said...

DCap,
Would that be Sarah (Crosshairs over Giffords) Palin?

Vigilante,
Thanks. But as they say, or maybe as I say, "Guns don't kill people. Reich Wingers kill people."

John,
"Conned-servatives" never let go.

I collect the Reich Wingers list for just such occasions of "debate". Nothing convinces the self-righteous Right of their wrongheadedness. Nothing. It is a cult very much like the Peoples Temple who killed Representative Ryan at Jonestown. The kool-ade Cult is alive, and evil.

TP,
I think this guy is mentally ill, or at least very stupid. It is the hateful indoctrination of the tea party cult and Reich Wing cult leaders FOX(R), Limbaugh, and Beck that spurs the violence. Who knows, if greedy Republicans hadn't stripped public funded medication from Arizona's mentally ill, this may not have happened. But mark my words, more lethal violence from the true believer fanatics on your side is inevitable. Go ahead and continue to deny it. That kool-ade must be sweet indeed.

I know you Righties are fond of pointing at issues you oppose, and say it “sends a message”. Medical Cannabis “sends the message that drugs are OK”. Unemployment compensation “sends the message” that you don’t have to look for a job, etc.

What the hell message do you think is sent by Palin’s crosshairs over Giffords’ district? What the hell message do you think is sent by the teabaggers’ signs saying, “We come unarmed...This time”? What the hell message do you think is sent by your “second Amendment remedies?” What the hell message do you think is sent by “Obama is a racist Marxist who is destroying America?” These are not rhetorical questions. I want you to think about what your answer would be.

This is fascism. This is terrorism. This is the new American Right, or as I would more accurately say, Reich.

It is your side that fuels the anger, the hate, and the ignorance. I don’t blame the Second Amendment. I blame the people that you believe in, the people you trust, and the people you echo every day. See what happens when people who hold your beliefs lack a conscience, or are driven by mental illness or despair. “By their fruits ye shall know them.”

I’m sad that you are blind to the evil that is obvious to most of us who pay attention. Let people die from lack of health care. Let people die by the hand of FOX(R) fanatics. I guess it’s just more important that the rich Mammonites don’t pay more taxes. To hell with the rest of us. There we see your “conservative” values at work.

DaisyDeadhead said...

Excellent post, Dave.

libhom said...

The people who incite these acts of terrorism must be prosecuted too.

Beekeepers Apprentice said...

The chickens are coming home to roost...to Palin, Beck, Fox, Rush...

Anon-Paranoid said...

Hi Dave...

I was reading the comments over on Dusty's Blog and saw your comment and your newest post.

After reading it I have to agree with you and what you wrote in it.

I have a blog also and have wrote some items that would say pretty much what you did and feel.

However, I have not really kept up since the crap going on by the Reich wing Republicans has pretty much burned me out.

I often use the term America The Fourth Reich,The Republican Nazi Party and other similar words like Fascism.

I will need to bookmark your site so I can check it now and then.

God Bless.

Dave Dubya said...

Daisy,
Thanks. Good to see you.

Libhom,
The fascists who incite all this are wealthy enough to afford the immunity by the best justice money can buy.

Bee,
Just wait, all those scoundrels will soon be blaming the "liberal media" for the violence.


AP,
Greetings. I never call Republicans Nazis. Nazis were the Third Reich. Although they share much in common, Republicans represent the fascist Fourth Reich. We can't let the fascists win on a technicality.

Dave Dubya said...

I thought I would add a relevant comment from someone who can't speak for herself at this time.

“We’re on Sarah Palin’s targeted list. But the thing is the way that she has it depicted has the cross hairs of a gun sight over our district. When people do that, they’ve got to realize there’s consequences to that.” Gabrielle Giffords (D) AZ

Weaseldog said...

Police think this young man had an accomplice. They are currently looking for the older man that arrived at the event with him.

If that man doesn't turn out to be FBI or CIA, then perhaps they'll catch him, and we'll learn more about the motivations.

Currently it seems he felt the current government was too controlling. He targeted Democrats.

It could be that he's not a conservative, but odds are that he was.

T. Paine argues that we a Constitutionally protected right to incite people to commit acts of violence and murder. I don't agree that our rights go that far.

I do believe (with certainty) that if a Republican had been shot instead, then T. Paine would be arguing against Free speech.

I think from what T. Paine has written in the past, that he is secretly very happy that this woman was shot.

Tom Harper said...

Sarah Palin and the rest of those whacked-out rightwing demagogues have to share the responsibility for yesterday's tragedy.

They probably haven't broken any laws, but they know damn well that a lot of their followers are inbred, bone-stupid and armed to the teeth. Figuratively, Sarah Palin gave a pack of matches to a 4-year-old and said "here, go play in the hayloft."

Then when the barn caught fire, she said "What, you're blaming me??? I didn't light the match for him."

Grung_e_Gene said...

Bachmann and the Republicans wanted people"armed and dangerous" over the Healthcare law...

When you invoke and use violent rhetoric the chance exists that some irrational (or rational) person may act upon your words.

Conservatives have embraced the language of violence and have used or threatened violence to effect political change. This is known as Terrorism.

Conservatism is Terrorism.

S.W. Anderson said...

Words have meaning and consequences.

We live in a country where any nut who's managed to stay out of court for a felony can waltz into a gun store and come out with a Glock and long clip capable of helping perpetrate a massacre.

We live in a country where people go through life believing seriously unbalanced people can be left free to fester until they boil over in violent rage.

We live in a country where people would rather have a third big-screen TV with surround sound than pay a few bucks to institutionalize the ticking time bombs in our midst.

We live in a country where those who go on radio and TV spewing hate talk, extremism and intimating violence is the answer to what's wrong are rewarded with ears, eyeballs and millions to hundreds of millions of dollars.

We live in a country where we think we're free, until we wind up in a place where some violent, enraged lunatic starts shooting innoncent people.

Past some point, freedom becomes license. Past that point, irresponsibility in affecting public opinion becomes being an accessory to murder.

A good case can be made, based on growing evidence, that we're at or past that point.

Dave Dubya said...

Wease,
I too wonder what the other guy had to do with the shooting. Was he some racist, tea nut, or just another Beck/Limbaugh zombie goading an idiot into murder?

As for TP, I'm sure he knows murder is wrong. It's the nexus of Right Wing hate and violence that he compartmentalizes outside of his thinking, as far as I can discern. I think he quite possibly believes Obama is a racist Marxist but has a conscience, along with enough sanity, that keeps him from supporting violence.

However such beliefs are the kindling for these flare-ups. Many incorporate those beliefs into violent ideology.

The only thing more dangerous than an idea is a belief. And by dangerous I don’t mean thought-provoking. I mean: might get people killed. – Sarah Vowell, The Wordy Shipmates

Tom,
We're about to see the broad range of defense mechanisms come from the Right: Denial, Repression, Projection, Rationalization, etc.

Grung,
The corporate media will avoid calling this guy a terrorist, even though it was precisely predicted by the Homeland Security/Justice Department's warning about right wing extremism. Remember the outrage from the Right intimidated the Obama Administration into sheepishly backpedaling away from the prophetic memo. Not that it takes a psychic to predict right wing extremist violence. It is an inevitable result of fascistic hate mongering.

Dave Dubya said...

SW,
This is what it looks like when a county slips into fascism. I'm a little surprised the media still calls McVeigh a terrorist. So far, he's the only right wing terrorist so labeled by the corporate media.

They are intimidated to the point where they are afraid to call this guy a terrorist. If he killed a Republican, the cries of "terrorist" would be deafening.

S.W. Anderson said...

T. Paine wrote: "Do you suppose, if this murderer does indeed turn out to be some un-hinged conservative, that we could stop this problem of violence by silencing all conservative talk . . ?"

From Wikipedia: "A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position.[1] To 'attack a straw man' is to create the illusion of having refuted a proposition by substituting it with a superficially similar yet unequivalent proposition (the 'straw man'), and refuting it, without ever having actually refuted the original position."

No one is seriously suggesting that all conservative talk be silenced. No one.

Now, please go back above and re-read the definition of "straw man argument."

Thank you.

Weaseldog said...

Dave said, "Tom,
We're about to see the broad range of defense mechanisms come from the Right: Denial, Repression, Projection, Rationalization, etc."

Yeah, over on GTL one of the posters is whining that the real victims here are not the people who were shot, wounded and killed, but Republicans like Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity. The liberals are being mean to them.

T. Paine said...

Now that facts are coming out and making most of the preceding comments look foolish, I wonder what your arguments will be.

This killer is a self-avowed atheist, thought George W. Bush was behind the bombing of the World Trade Center, said his favorite book was the Communist Manifesto, and argued unintelligibley about grammar and our currency. This hardly strikes me as the makings of a Tea Party conservative ideologue.

You all jump to the conclusion that since it was a Democrat that was shot, it must be some Beck/Palin/Limbaugh zombie working on non-existent orders to commit violence. Shame on all of you for trying to gain politcal standing from the execution of such a heinous act by some evil unhinged killer!

Weasel, your comments disgust me sir. You have an uncanny and highly inaccurate knack for putting words in people's mouths that they did not say or intend. Your pernicious crap is especially true in this latest case, regarding my thoughts and intentions. I suggest you find a crystal ball that works a little better next time.

Weaseldog said...

Here is his book list... T. Paine has special privileged knowledge as to which his favorite.

Animal Farm
Brave New World
The Wizard Of OZ
Aesop Fables
The Odyssey
Alice Adventures Into Wonderland
Fahrenheit 451
Peter Pan
To Kill A Mockingbird
We The Living
Phantom Toll Booth
One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest
Pulp,Through The Looking Glass
The Communist Manifesto
Siddhartha
The Old Man And The Sea
Gulliver's Travels
Mein Kampf
The Republic
Meno

Clearly he isn't a Democrat, he's a right wing Athenian! Or is he a right wing goose stepper?

Or did he just fill in a list of books that might make him look cool?

T. Paine, while you condemn me, you're also exploiting this tragedy to promote a partisan position. You pick one book at of a list that's all over the map, to prove he's a Democrat or a lefty or something, to deflect criticism of the right.

From what I can tell, he's a mentally ill young man that's trying to stop the voices in his head. His writings on his YouTube videos suggest as much.

You can bet that this event will strengthen the hate and anger on both sides. Both Democrats and Republicans scream and foam and spit their hate. It's what the leadership wants.

T. Paine said...

Indeed, it seems that Cloward and Piven's plan is well underway.

Dave Dubya said...

SW and Wease,
I heard Rush today, lying that the left is out to subvert the Constitution in order to "silence" the Right. As if condemning their hate speech is anything near "silencing" them. Be afraid and hate the liberals is clearly the message.

TP,
Ditto above? Oh, look, another scary phantom of the Right. Cloward and Piven's "strategy of forcing political change through orchestrated crisis." Hmmm, sounds familiar, like WMD's, connections to al-Qaeda, and "they hate us for our freedom", etc., except hundreds of thousands of innocent people didn't die by their orders.

I'm confused now. I don't know who I'm supposed to take orders from and to parrot. Cloward and Piven, Soros, Alinsky? Make up your mind, please.

I've never read any of these people, so I need your help here, TP.

I’m kidding, of course. Liberals, unlike Right Wing authoritarians, do not unquestioningly believe and follow leaders. When did Bush/Cheney ever say their radical Right base were “F*ing retards”? That’s what I was called by the White House. Do you think I would repeat their corporatist ideology? No equivalency.

Back to the subject. It was a Right Wing political assassination. He didn't do it for Jody Foster.

Here's what Loughner wrote:

If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon.

You don’t have to accept the federalist laws. Nonetheless, read the USA’s Constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws.

No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver.


Apart from the crazy grammar thing, how does this sick person’s thinking appear any different from the tea party anti-government rhetoric, Sharon(Second Amendment Remedies) Angle, Golden Glenn (Obama's a Marxist racist who hates white people) Beck, and Rush (Take the bastards out) Limbaugh?

His deranged thinking is clearly influenced by Right Wing ideology.

Since your fellow radical Righties hold to the same rhetoric attributed to the propagandists, I expect many more of your fellow true believers may also be one breakdown away from such "patriotic" violence. It is a fear and anger induced belief system that leads to violence. "Commies have taken the White House!" Now that's a call for "Second Amendment remedies" if ever there was one.

T. Paine said...

Dubya, I had hoped that you had read enough of my comments in the past to know that I absolutely condemn this violence and all political violence from whatever vector it comes.

The political left, particularly in the 20th century, has been reponsible for MILLIONS of deaths more than the political right has. That does not excuse either from their sins, nor does it do anyone any good to get in a tit for tat debate about who is the most evil or egregious. Fault can be found everywhere.

This killer was mentally unstable. He was not a politically motivated assassin.

All sides need to be aware of their words, as they also need to not be hyper-sensitive and take things out of context or severely exagerate a statement in an act of political posturing.

We all need to come together from all walks of life in condemnation of this violence. Only then can we begin to heal our society.

You can say that I am rather dissapointed, Dubya... :(

Vigilante said...

T.P. says.

"The political left, particularly in the 20th century, has been reponsible for MILLIONS of deaths more than the political right has. That does not excuse either from their sins, nor does it do anyone any good to get in a tit for tat debate about who is the most evil or egregious. Fault can be found everywhere."

Here in the USA?

Mauigirl said...

Well said, Dave, and also SW Anderson in your comment.

While the man who did this was deeply disturbed and may or may not have been directly inspired by the right wing hate rhetoric, I have no doubt that constantly being exposed to their words had to have encouraged him to act on whatever twisted urges he had. We can't silence free speech but I can only hope Americans will turn off Glenn Beck, Bill O'Reilly, and their ilk, and stop supporting their programs if they persist in their hateful rhetoric.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
I’m completely with you on, “We all need to come together from all walks of life in condemnation of this violence. Only then can we begin to heal our society.”

I not only join you in condemnation of the violence; I fully believe we share a terrible sense of horror over this evil madness.

So if I understand your point, where we really cross the line is when we exaggerate, and then condemn, the hate speech out there that contributes to the anger infecting our society. And since you compare our politics to your straw man Stalin’s...My, we really are Marxist Monsters after all, aren’t we? That would make us look like we really are out to destroy America, wouldn’t it? If that’s the case then someone had better exaggerate, if at all possible, the words, “Second Amendment remedies”, “Obama's a Marxist racist who hates white people”, and “Take the bastards out, they are destroying America”. Am I not right?

Those words are intended at the very least to incite negative emotional reaction to Democrats and convince listeners to vote for Republicans. And since negative emotional reactions in unstable people would be the most common reason why violence happens, I’ll need you to clear that up for me.

You astound us with your advanced understanding of the human psyche.

You conclude, “This killer was mentally unstable. He was not a politically motivated assassin”.

Would you kindly explain your reasoning, or any comparable case histories, so we too can understand why these words prove the absence of political motivation?

If I define terrorist then a terrorist is a person who employs terror or terrorism, especially as a political weapon.

You don’t have to accept the federalist laws. Nonetheless, read the USA’s Constitution to apprehend all of the current treasonous laws.

No! I won’t pay debt with a currency that’s not backed by gold and silver.


If it was not a politically motivated assassin, then what would it be? Would it be manslaughter? No, there’s proof of pre-meditated intent. If we look at the pre-meditated intent, we can’t dismiss the political aspect, now can we? Where do we go, claiming he is insane without considering what he wrote? That’s clearly where your peculiar forensic psychiatric diagnosis takes us. It seems your diagnostic impression and judgment for this killer would apperar be “not guilty by reason of insanity”. Perhaps he is guilty but mentally ill and would not be executed for the slaughter. Very compassionate of you I’d say.

Maybe you’re really a bleeding heart, anti-death penalty sort of guy after all. If so, then you can say that I am rather less disappointed with you, my friend.

Maui,
I hear you, sister. We need more Americans to wake up to the propaganda. This is why I have the bumper sticker on my car. “Fox is bad news for America”

Vigilante,
Yes, we are surprised and enlightened to learn that Stalin, Mao, and Pol Pot were fellow liberal progressives. I guess they are TP’s proof that American liberals are so violent.

S.W. Anderson said...

Dave, people cross the line when, rather than saying, "Your policy is all wrong because ..." and resort to assigning motives (Obama secretly hates America, hates white people, etc.)(liberals want everyone under government control, dependent on the nanny state, etc.) and otherwise demonizing the opposition.

Visit Worldnet Daily or Red State, listen to Beck or Limbaugh or Hannity, any day, whatever issues are at the top of the news cycle. You'll see the line crossed with gusto, constantly.

Weaseldog said...

T. Paine said... "Indeed, it seems that Cloward and Piven's plan is well underway."

Who are they? Architects of Bush's Administration?

Are they heroes of yours?

You said, "The political left, particularly in the 20th century, has been reponsible for MILLIONS of deaths more than the political right has."

Like Ghandi?

Dave Dubya said...

SW and Weaase,
TP is in a difficult position to defend. He cannot condemn the hate speech from those he agrees with, thus the need for defense mechanisms. This is why he needs his straw men, and must accuse us of exaggerating and taking their false and hateful words "out of context".

So you see, it's the liberals’ fault again. Projection is a common defense mechanism of such "conservative virtue". Rush is now blaming the Pima County Sheriff for the killer being loose. It is retaliation and projection to counter Dupnik’s comment, “We need to do some soul searching. It’s the vitriolic rhetoric that we hear day in and day out from people in the radio business and some people in the TV business.”
Here’s another example of Right Wing defense mechanisms.

When we say Republican de-funding of public health systems and mental health programs is the problem, they justify that by minimizing the de-funding with rationalization, intellectualization, and externalization.

Here are some helpful definitions of defense mechanisms to describe the Right’s style of “debate”. It is also how they cope with all the fear that is instilled into their belief system.

http://www.allaboutcounseling.com/defense_mechanisms.htm

We’ve all used defenses to distance ourselves from distressing feelings and maintain a sense of emotional stability. Our defense patterns began in childhood when they prevented us from becoming overwhelmed with anxiety.

rationalization: providing "explanations" to excuse inconsistent or irrational behavior, and not being aware that this is happening.

minimizing: protecting yourself from worry or anxiety by viewing significant events or problem behaviors as being less important (smaller) than they actually are.

externalization: believing outside forces or circumstances are the cause of your self-destructive behaviors. This defense mechanism allows you to avoid accepting responsibility for behavior.

intellectualization: using lengthy argument or small detail (deflecting behavior) to distract from the task at hand.

projection: attributing your own undesirable traits or thoughts onto another person.

T. Paine said...

Dubya, I am missing how the twisted and nonsensical words that Loughner stated and you have quoted identify him as having succumbed to right wing ideology.

Further, I am amused that you accuse me of the very thing you are guilty of, my friend. You claim I am "psychic" and can determine his motivations, while you do the exact same thing contrary to the evidence we have thus far. You are amazing in your abilities, Dave!

I really don't want to do this, but everyone here is seemingly so convinced that the left doesn't incite or engage in violence in America... as per Vigilante's implication.

That being the case, the evil right-wing Michelle Malkin put together a post which often has the perpetrators on video in their own words just to show you all that the right doesn't have a monopoly on this:

http://michellemalkin.com/2011/01/10/the-progressive-climate-of-hate-an-illustrated-primer-2000-2010/

If there is any objectivity at all here, I think we all can agree that we need to stop the nonsense. We can disagree and debate the issues, but the violence and inciting thereof must stop from all quarters.

Oh, and by the way, Dubya, I am indeed against the death penalty.

Weaseldog said...

Hang on, let me just tell you what I’m thinking. I’m thinking about killing Michael Moore, and I’m wondering if I could kill him myself, or if I would need to hire somebody to do it. No, I think I could. I think he could be looking me in the eye, you know, and I could just be choking the life out — is this wrong? I stopped wearing my What Would Jesus — band — Do, and I’ve lost all sense of right and wrong now. I used to be able to say, “Yeah, I’d kill Michael Moore,” and then I’d see the little band: What Would Jesus Do? And then I’d realize, “Oh, you wouldn’t kill Michael Moore. Or at least you wouldn’t choke him to death.” And you know, well, I’m not sure. - Glenn Beck

Weaseldog said...

T. Paine posits this strawman argument - I really don't want to do this, but everyone here is seemingly so convinced that the left doesn't incite or engage in violence in America... as per Vigilante's implication.

and then he beats the crap out of his very own straw man argument! Give the man a giant belt made from woven straw! He's the new WWSF Champ!

No one here has said the left has never engaged in or incited violence. You invented that idea. If you're going to propose that idea, it's your duty to defend it, not ours.

Dave has been clear that the right kicks the left's butt when it comes to violence. He never said the left never engages in it, just that if you start measuring, the right wins this competition handedly. The right essentially skunks the left on violence.

You take the right which loves violence and war in many varied forms, from football to dropping bombs on schools in Baghdad, and compare it to the left which is largely anti-war and full of cycling and jogging geeks, and there's just no comparison.

You said, "Further, I am amused that you accuse me of the very thing you are guilty of, my friend. You claim I am "psychic" and can determine his motivations, while you do the exact same thing contrary to the evidence we have thus far. You are amazing in your abilities, Dave!"

I have the psychic power of reading the written word. Jared wrote about our government's violation of the US Constitution and his belief in we should be returning to the gold standard.

Is it your argument that the Tea Party is at war with the US Constitution and rejects the use of gold as a currency?

I am not against the death penalty, but I am also troubled by the fact that we seem to have a serious problem with convictions based on insufficient evidence and or prosecuterial misconduct.

So this is a topic where I feel a bit conflicted at times.

Dave Dubya said...

Wease,
Thank you for the perfect example.


TP,
I know you prefer to avoid answering questions but this is one I would like you to address:

Why do his words, which are often invoked by the Right, and therefore identify him with the Right’s ideology, prove the absence of political motivation? Evidence shows he pre-meditated a political assassination, even naming the victim, and you mysteriously cannot see a political motivation. Your conclusion is contrary to evidence. Please explain.

I have more questions you may want to ignore.

As you see, Beck plainly expressed his wish that Michael Moore be killed. Who on the left has said anything remotely similar to this on a national broadcast of his own program?

Malkin’s list is impressive. Yes, leftists have vandalized property. Where are the dead bodies? And who are these people? Do they have nationally broadcast TV and radio programs, like Beck and Limbaugh? Are they regular guests on MSNBC like Malkin is on FOX(R)?

Where is the equivalent example of the Right’s pre-meditated and encouraged brick throwing vandalism of politicians’ offices that we saw during the derangement over health care?

Speaking of Malkin, the nation’s darkest white supremacist, did you know Chad Castegana, the guy who sent Keith Olberman the fake anthrax and drove a van saying “death to liberals," was a great fan of Malkin’s?

Speaking of Malkin, do you recall she published personal phone numbers of the UC Santa Cruz students protesting military recruitment? They received numerous death threats.

Speaking of Malkin, did you know FOX(R)’s own Geraldo said, "Michelle Malkin is the most vile, hateful commentator I've ever met In my life"?

Any answers? No more straw men, please.

I’m happy to hear you are at least a good Catholic to the point of opposing the death penalty. (I was raised Catholic.) Now if only you can understand how many people your guys Bush and Cheney sentenced to death for doing nothing other than living in Iraq. The Pope condemned that war, you know.

There’s hope for you, brother, and my questons are meant to help you understand, not just to register disagreement with your views.

Dave Dubya said...

SW,
Thank you for reminding us of what I omitted on my list.

The anthrax attacks on journalists and Democrats and the “Conservative” orchestrated “Kristallnacht” vandalism of the health care bill supporters are very significant acts indicating fascist behavior from Right Wing extremists.

Anonymous said...

this is not the problem:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/.a/6a00d8341c60bf53ef01156f2bb0be970c-500wi

this is :
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QxgJKNpjSNI&feature=player_embedded

and this is:

http://myiq2xu.files.wordpress.com/2010/11/sarah-cunt.jpg

Dave Dubya said...

Anonymous,
Please.

Doc Häagen-Dazs said...

I make it a point of (a) never responding to anonymous comments, (b) always deleting them on my blog, and (c) never clicking on unformatted links. Having violated "C" in this instance I will make a point I have made before: there's a big difference between hateful demagoguery that is delivered over the mass media (news 'commentators' & political candidates) on one hand and irate crazy nut-jobs on the internet otoh. The difference between wholesale hate and retail hate is something we should focus on. In addition to controlling gun access for retail haters.

John Myste said...

Let’s call this comment, Intermission.

OK, I had sworn to myself not to get involved in this discussion, as all of the players outclass me handily. It is better to be silent and thought a fool, etc. This site is damn addictive. The discourse here is lively and informed (even the misinformation is more learned than the facts on most other political blogs).

I just realized that I am a fool, and one with something irrelevant to say, so I must interrupt the intellectual debate with my interjection.


I was reluctant to get involved in this discussion because the other players outclass me handily.

Doc Haagan-Dazs – LOL. I don’t know you, but that was funny. I hope you intended for it to be.

I am a liberal and have written several comments defending conservatives against the extreme “violent” reaction to “conservative-inspired violence.” Quite a few people are blaming talk show hosts and political pundits and not the perpetrators of the violence. Some people, perhaps our beloved Beck, are guilty as charged in this thread. Providing 100 links showing someone in the liberal camp committing the same crime will not exonerate him.

Let me give a quote:

“You take the right which loves violence and war in many varied forms, from football to dropping bombs on schools in Baghdad, and compare it to the left which is largely anti-war and full of cycling and jogging geeks, and there's just no comparison.”

-- Weaseldog

T. Paine --
Democrats are known as the wimps who favor cotton candy to guns, long incarcerations to the death penalty. Any other time, when the topic is not violence, conservatives not only admit this, but bring up the fact reproachfully. I am a fan of your argumentation, Mr. T. Paine. Even though you rarely reach the correct destination, you do bravely support your cause, on many fronts, as you are currently holding complex debates on other sites at the same time. Even in this den of political adversaries, you trudge on, and I respect that. I would hate to join in, in support of the pack, as you try to survive, but … I would like to hear your response to this Weasldog’s statement. I am hoping you will freely concede his point, even if you judge it to be irrelevant. Were I your attorney, that is what I would advise you to do.

Weasledog –

“I am not against the death penalty, but I am also troubled by the fact that we seem to have a serious problem with convictions based on insufficient evidence and or prosecutorial misconduct.”

I would hate to change the subject, but I am very much against the death penalty, for the concerns you have and others. While I reluctantly acknowledge the potential legitimacy of the utilitarian position, I do not acknowledge that it is needed for retribution or justice. I also do not concede that is needed for any reason. People who commit heinous crimes, one that would “earn” them the death penalty are by any measure one can realistically use, sick. I do not believe in retribution, and if I did, I would not believe in punishing a sick person for suffering the symptoms of his illness, regardless of anyone else’s rights they happen to also infringe upon. I do agree that a murderer must be stopped and I also agree that if something serves as a deterrent to future crimes, it should be considered.

Don’t respond to that, Weasel, I don’t want to get into a long debate about it. I will just end up conceding defeat, after many hours of introspection.

Weaseldog said...

John, I'm not going to argue with you on the Death Penalty. Like I said, I'm conflicted.

I don't see it as retribution. I see it as a public safety issue. The likes of Ted Bundy, Jeffrey Dahlmer, John Wayne Gacy etc... may well be sick, but they are also incurable. So long as people like these live, they pose a danger to those around them.

Dave Dubya said...

Doc,

Thank you for the excellent advice. I said a while back, after a particularly loathsome anonymous troll's lies and nonsense, that I would give only one response to anonymous comments. They are not worth any more, especially if they refuse to identify themselves.

You're right, the body count from retail hate is bad enough, but the consequences of wholesale hate have led to uncounted thousands of dead in the past decade. This is not even factoring the millions of people terrorized between Islamo-fascism and corporate Christo-fascsim.

Kulkuri said...

All these rabble-rousing talking heads have what St. Ronnie's boys called plausible deniability. Just because they weren't there in person whispering in his ear, they can deny any responsibility.

Dave Dubya said...

Kulkuri,
Yes, just because someone pours gas on the fire, that doesn't mean they started it.

John Myste said...

Weasledog, that is a very utilitarian philosophy, so I sympathize with your position.

T. Paine said...

First, let me say that I can safely assume that Beck was not serious about killing Moore. Regardless, the quotation is not funny and I am in agreement that this type of statement is absolutely not to be condoned in anyway. Beck was unequivocally wrong here!

As for a left-wing example of such speech, as per your request, I give you:

"I'm thinking to myself if we were in other countries, we would all, right now, all of us together,.... would go down to Washington and we would stone ( Republican US Representative) Henry Hyde to death. We would stone him to death! Wait!... Shutup! No. Shutup! I'm not finished. We would stone Henry Hyde to death, and we would go to their homes and we'd kill their wive's and their children. We would kill their families." Alec Baldwin. Late Night with Conan O'Brien 1998

"Why do his words, which are often invoked by the Right, and therefore identify him with the Right’s ideology, prove the absence of political motivation? Evidence shows he pre-meditated a political assassination, even naming the victim, and you mysteriously cannot see a political motivation. Your conclusion is contrary to evidence. Please explain..."

First, other than a certain small percentage of right-wingers agreeing with the need to re-establish the gold standard, where am I missing your point? There are also those on the left that support this cause. And by no means does a majority of right-wingers, especially those in office, support returning to a gold standard.

Next, Loughner did indeed wound a Democrat Congresswoman. He also KILLED a Republican judge and a nine year old girl. Is that something only characteristic of a right-winger where they want to kill children and judges?

Further, Loughner's best friend said that he was NOT political, he did not watch the news, he did not listen to political talk radio, and that he was neither left nor right.

http://savingcommonsense.blogspot.com/2011/01/jared-loughners-friend-says-that-he-was.html

Loughner, for whatever reason, seemed to have an obssession with Giffords. He was mentally unstable. There is no conclusive evidence to link his heinous crimes to any political talk from the right or left.

Again, for every item you say makes him a right-wing nut, I have one that says he was a left-wing nut. His friend's testimony to GMA pretty much clears up the fact that he was not a political ideologue of any stripe but rather was a sick and unstable man.

Dave Dubya said...

TP,
Baldwin apologized. When will Beck? I'll answer that. Never.

Baldwin wasn't rewarded with his own "News channel" program either, unlike Beck.

Same thing, eh?

The difference is people like you believe in everything Beck says. They believe in everything Limbaugh says. They willingly embrace the lies and hate. It feels so good to blame liberals for evrything, as you know.

I'm glad you understand, "Beck was unequivocally wrong here". What if he is wrong almost every day he's on the air? He is, you know. And he is unapologetic for his hate speech because that is his job. There's you difference.

You keep acting as if I said this guy was a Republican. I never said so. I'm saying you cannot dismiss the influence of the Right's hate speech and lies on unstable people. I gave a list of killers attributing their motives to Right Wing hate speech. If the Left incited hate and anger through lies I would blame them too.

Are you sure my position is unreasonable when I say this was a pre-meditated political assassination? Mental illness certainly can include pre-meditation.

It's too bad Republicans hate public health programs, and cut community mental health services as well. Maybe that's another, and very relevant, factor here.

One more question for you. Loughner was suffering from delusions of government controlled grammar and mind control. How is that any more detached from reality than the pervasive Right Wing belief that Obama is a Marxist Muslim out to destroy our country? Don't you think that kind of talk incites this kind of violent madness? ... Well?

There are a lot more fuses out there ready to be lit. And FOX(R) and Limbaugh are busy striking matches.

T. Paine said...

Dubya, I find that "Obama is a Marxist Kenyan Muslim" something that I have heard in criticism from the left in their anger towards the right far more often than I have ever heard some nut job on the right say it.

(Although there are some Marxist policies that Obama has subscribed to for sure.)

As for Beck, I don't know if he apologized for his comment or not. He sure as hell should have. It was way over the top and out of line.

How about some of the rhetoric our president has used? He is supposed to be everybodies president, or so I thought.

* “If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun.” Barack Obama in July 2008


* “I want you to argue with them and get in their face!” Barack Obama, September 2008


* “Here’s the problem: It’s almost like they’ve got — they’ve got a bomb strapped to them and they’ve got their hand on the trigger. You don’t want them to blow up. But you’ve got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger.” Barack Obama on banks, March 2009


* “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” Barack Obama on ACORN Mobs, March 2010


* “We talk to these folks… so I know whose ass to kick.” Barack Obama on the private sector, June 2010


* “A Republican majority in Congress would mean ‘hand-to-hand combat’ on Capitol Hill for the next two years, threatening policies Democrats have enacted to stabilize the economy.” Barack Obama, October 6, 2010


* “We’re gonna punish our enemies and we’re gonna reward our friends who stand with us on issues that are important to us.” Barack Obama to Latinos, October 2010

For all of his faults, I don't ever remember George W. Bush saying such inflammatory things about the political left.

I guess it doesn't matter though, since he is a Democrat and has everybody's best interest at heart, huh?

Dave Dubya said...

TP.
Most of my message to you is at the following post.

For here I will simply respond to your point that George W. Bush didn't say inflammatory things about the political left.

He didn't have to. He had his own 24/7 FOX(R) and talk radio do it for him, remember?

Obama has nothing to compare to that propaganda network. That's why the GOP won so many seats in Congress. See FOX(R) Misinformation.

Doc Häagen-Dazs said...

TP is hyperbolic. What's wrong with these?

* “I want you to argue with them and get in their face!” Barack Obama, September 2008


* “Here’s the problem: It’s almost like they’ve got — they’ve got a bomb strapped to them and they’ve got their hand on the trigger. You don’t want them to blow up. But you’ve got to kind of talk them, ease that finger off the trigger.” Barack Obama on banks, March 2009


* “I don’t want to quell anger. I think people are right to be angry! I’m angry!” Barack Obama on ACORN Mobs, March 2010


BHO's not threatening violence at all. TeePee is half right. That's the best you can say for him, IMO.

Cat said...

I've read all the comments on this particular blog and I only have one thing to say... until every human on this planet believes that every other human on this planet has a right to live, this kind of thing will continue to happen. By human I am referring to a person who has left the womb and is trying to survive in this world of anger, greed and destruction. Maybe we could all work on THAT!

T. Paine said...

Cat, you are the most sensible one among us. Thank you for putting things into PROPER perspective.

Dave Dubya said...

Cat,
Amen. It's tragic that anger, greed and destruction so often trump human life in our culture.

Anonymous said...

Why not post the DLC map with the bulls-eyes? And the gun ads they have used? http://www.dlc.org/ndol_ci.cfm?contentid=253055&kaid=127&subid=171. I'm an independent and i see both side spreading presumptive hate including yourself. You wrote; “Not again,” I groaned. “Will this right wing violence ever end?” Is it right wing violence? At the G20 meeting of economic leaders in Pittsburgh. Police had to fire pepper spray and smoke at left-wing anarchists who haven’t a clue how to conduct a peaceful protest, but the trouble has barely made the news. The Huffington Post celebrated the protests with a vote-on-your-favorite photo contest that included shots of the street thugs.

Rev. Wright who preaches black liberation racist theology and hatred of America.

Louis Farrakhan who promotes anti-white, anti-Semitic propaganda.

Former communist and left wing extremist Van Jones, who recently had a makeover after resigning as Green Jobs Czar, and now sits on Princeton University's staff.

Dave Dubya said...

Anonymous,
Your dishonesty deserves no response. You are obviously as "independent" as Rush Limbaugh.

KOTM said...

It seems to me that you are so blinded by partisan hatred that you can not see past your own vision of political correctness. Both sides have good reasons and good arguments for their positions. Everybody has a worldview and a perspective on things political and everybody who has an opinion on any subject always thinks that he or she is right. This is not a good excuse for not listening to the other side to understand and with respect. This is not an excuse for not presenting one's own views with logic, reason, and respect (devoid of sarcasm, hate speech, ad hominems, and the like). When one deviates from this and expresses hatred or contempt for the views of the other side, one begins a vicious cycle of biased vitriol which defines our political debates today . . . unfortunately. There are mostly good people with good motivations and reasonable arguments on both sides . . . the way you talk to and about the people on the other side determines the level of hatred and disrespect that ensues.

Dave Dubya said...

KOTM,
Thank you for your somewhat neutral comment. You take the corporate media-style false equivalency approach to the issues. I'm not sure how long you've been watching politics, but the Right has been actively demonizing liberals for over thirty years through an increasingly corporatized rightward leaning media. Liberals didn't start calling out the Right until after we were accused of being anti-family, anti-business, and even anti-American communists. There's no reasoning with hateful liars.

Incidents of right wing hate speech and violence so vastly outnumber anything from the left, any attempts to equate the two are obviously uninformed, or meant to deceive.

I've never refused to listen respectfully to good arguments backed with reason. If you cannot discern the difference between condemnation of hate speech and the actual original hate, then you just don't get it.

One more thing. I don't hate "conservative" people. I happen to be very conservative about preserving what remains of our democracy and freedoms. Conservatism and radical Right politics are not the same thing at all. I strongly oppose the Right Wing lies and the anti-democratic fascism from their propagandist network. I also strongly oppose Democrats who spinelessly aid and abet the war, torture, warrantless surveillance of citizens, and other acts that desecrate our Bill of Rights. If you perceive that as "partisan hatred" equal to the deceitful hate from the Right, then again, you just don't get it.

By accusing me of being blinded by hatred, your own bias is showing a bit, don't you think?

Thank you for your comment, and allowing me the opportunity to clarify things for you.