Tuesday, April 21, 2009

Post Tea Chat

I have always been interested in hearing from people with differing perspectives. We have a conservative visitor who seems to believe in civil discourse and has provided us with some post tea time conversation. I think our discussion would make a nice post and I’d like to thank Dan for sharing his views with us.
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Dave,

I find your claim incredulous. Am I supposed to believe “an old-fashioned American citizen who believes in our traditional values of freedom, truth, and justice”, would steadily chip away the podium on which he ‘supposedly’ stands?

I have to give you credit in regards to your subtle (sometimes not) attempts to marginalize the Tea Parties. You stripped a page from Napolitano’s script when she so timely warned us of “radical right-wing extremist” (and Obama claimed to know nothing of the Tea Parties). I find it laughable as well as hypocritical, that hard-core liberals who have made a history of protest can in good conscience cast stones at those protesting. Perhaps just beyond the realm of your comprehension lie those protesting their concerns about trillions of dollars and debt for future generations as well as expressing their frustration as they watch the government bail out large corporate entities. (Only a fool can believe that taxes will not go through the roof once the ‘recovery’ takes place). Many are also fair tax proponents, of course that would be a problem for those forty-fifty percent that don’t currently contribute federal tax dollars, but still receive refunds.

I’ve stayed too long…now back to reality. I trust never-never land will rest in your capable hands.

---
Dan,

Thanks for your input. Your podium metaphor isn't quite clear to me.

You said, I "stripped a page from Napolitano’s script when she so timely warned us of “radical right-wing extremist”. No, I didn't.

And besides, I would credit someone for any page I would strip them of. BTW, nice post you got over there.;-)

In fact, violent right wing radicalism has been around for a long time.

US News and World Report: 2005:

"In the 10 years since the 1995 Oklahoma City bombing killed 168 people, roughly 60 right-wing terrorist plots have been uncovered in the United States, according to an upcoming report by the Southern Poverty Law Center's Intelligence Project. The plots, all foiled by law enforcement, reportedly included violent plans by antigovernment militia groups, racist skinhead organizations, and Ku Klux Klan members to use various types of chemical bombs and other weapons."

And we all know of the recent right wing politically motivated killings of Tennessee Unitarians and Pittsburgh cops.

Face it, Dan. Right wingers are more violent than libs and moderates. It's in their authoritarian nature.

You may be surprised to learn liberals detest the bank bailouts, too.

American corporatism has always been the offspring of Republicans and right leaning, big business Dems.

Remember when the righties called us traitors for protesting Bush's lying us into a war that has cost us the first trillion dollars of the Bush debt?

Where was the outrage from the conservatives when Bush started the TARP corporate welfare program?

And just who are the ones casting stones anyway, those accusing Fox/corporate lobby sponsored shills as dancing puppets of their corporatist masters, or those accusing demonstrators of treason?

Don't get me wrong, I believe you love your country, but you appear to love conservatism more.

---
Dave,

I have to admit I’ve bookmarked your site; the entertainment value is priceless.

The podium reference was rather tongue-in-cheek. You claim to support traditional values. As a side note, the Wikipedia entry for right-wing mentions “an adherence and obedience to traditional values”.

I was not suggesting you had plagiarized Mrs. Napolitano’s work, only that you used the same tired scare tactics. All veterans must be ‘right wing’ and since they know how to use weapons, we add one and one and come up with four. (the extra two came from the logical assumption that right wing=angry and deranged). Only by using such poisonous terms as “Reich wing” will the conservative right ever include such hate groups as the skin-heads and KKK. On the lines of hating, I don’t suppose you caught Janeane Garofalo’s interview (a fine representation of a hate-filled lib)

Tarp funds were certainly not a unanimous choice on either side, but it is worth noting the bill carried through the house with a nearly two to one margin Dem/Rep 172/91.

No matter your position on the Iraq war only the ‘Bush-haters” have turned it into a lie. I’m assuming by the “Bush lie” you mean W.M.D.’s (“boo…hiss…dirty words”). It was a very popular lie as it seems Joe Lieberman, Dianne Feinstein, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, Hilary Clinton, Al Gore, John Edwards, Ted Kennedy, and Madeline Albright also told the very same lie back then. Hindsight will always be 20/20 and a short memory serves it well.

It is no secret President Obama believes in a heavily involved government: socialized health care (one look at the mismanagement of the V.A. program should send us running) and the refusal to accept repayment of tarp money (is the president erring on the side of caution or do I smell a big, fat pot of socialism brewing?)

I do love my country, just as our founders intended it to be, with a small, limited role for government.

---
Dan,

It’s nice to know you find entertainment value in my anti-authoritarian satire.

Didn’t you know liberals have traditional values, as well as anti-authoritarian values? Along with justice and truth, one of my favorite values is “blessed are the peacemakers”. Is that traditional enough?

You say I used the same tired scare tactics. Do you mean stuff like “mushroom clouds”, “Saddam’s aerial drones that will drop chemicals and anthrax on us”, “nukular aluminum tubes” , “Saddam’s connections to al-Qaeda”, “We know where the WMD’s are”, and “they hate us for our freedom” kind of scare tactics? The Bush cartel spewed lies by the hundreds, and they punished anyone who contradicted them. Ask Joe Wilson and his covert (confirmed by the Director) intelligence operative wife who was treasonously exposed by Rove, Cheney and his thug sidekick Libby. And unlike some Dems who may have thought Saddam had the weapons, but wanted inspectors to do their job, the Bush lies were intended to frighten and anger Americans into supporting his war of aggression directed at a nation that did not harbor al-Qaeda and posed no threat to the US.

Bush’s invasion of Iraq had less to do with protecting US citizens than with consolidating political power and winning re-election, along with transferring, or redistributing, enormous wealth to his and Cheney’s war profiteering friends. He has pretty much admitted his “war president and political capital” idea in his book before he became president. Maybe it even had something to do with oil. It sure looked like the perfect plan to funnel our tax dollars directly into the pockets of mercenaries and other connected business interests. There’s that trickle up economy for you.

This reminds me, what do conservatives think of Eisenhower’s concern over the influence of the military industrial complex? I have always been curious about that. Taxes on the rich were higher during his time than they were under Clinton, you know. Was Ike a Socialist?

I’m glad you’re sensitive to the use of poisonous terms. We heard a lot of them lately. Traitors, America haters, Appeasers of terrorists, Socialist, secret Muslim, Obama pallin’ around with a terrorist, far left wackos, “real Americans” as opposed to moderates and liberals. The list goes on. I have explained my term Reich Wingers to be authoritarian fanatics, hateful, ignorant, violent, racist, bigots, book burning, commie-obsessed holdovers, and other intolerant types. Most conservative folks are not Reich Wingers.

What did I ever say against the vets? And are you advocating shutting down the V.A.?

You need to re-calibrate your negative emotion gauge if you are equating Janeane Garofalos’s anger with the rage and hatred from skin heads and Klansmen.

There are many of us who are neither Obama maniacs nor sufferers of Obama Derangement Syndrome. Yes, Obama is a Democrat who believes government can solve some problems. I also see him as a company man working with corporatist interests. I have objected to any authoritarian stand he takes, such as FISA, rendition, no rights for detainees, etc.

I love my country, but I fear our rogue government when it ignores the rule of law and the Bill of Rights.

Conservatives seem to like to have it both ways. Big Government can’t do anything right, yet “small government” must wield the world’s mega military machine effectively and wisely. Government must not interfere with the corporate agenda no matter the impact on the public and environment. Small government must be able to send paramilitary armored assault teams of cops to kick in the doors of peaceful protesters and forcibly detain credentialed journalists. Remember the tactics at the GOP Convention?

There’s no role for government to regulate Big Business, but we need government to dictate the behavior of responsible consenting adults in their homes. They have no objection to warrantless NSA and CIA surveillance of US citizens. It is as if the Second Amendment was as far as they read into the Bill of Rights. Waterboarding is torture when someone else does it, (We’ve prosecuted against it) but not when we do it. And the Right accuses the Left of “moral relativism”.

There is a long list of contradictory disconnects at play here. Here is one of my favorites. Two thirds of US corporations pay no income taxes. Yet through lobbying and campaign donations they buy representation in the government. There you have it. Big Business has representation WITHOUT taxation! The rest of us get the shaft, buddy. Workers’ rights to collective bargaining are being crushed. Is it any wonder the middle class is shrinking and the poor are multiplying? This is not democracy, it is corporatism and it leads to fascism.

Some of us want to have government work for the public interest, as in education, health care, infrastructure, police, fire, courts, and municipal services.

On the other hand the right wants no regulation, and no legal oversight. Government is to facilitate the interests of Big Money or get out of the way. It is their golden rule: those with the gold make the rules.

If the government works for the public, then call it socialism if you must. Just understand that when the tea baggers shriek “socialism” and “communism” over a 3 percent tax restoration for the rich it makes them look like selfish greedy idiots.

Remember “Render unto Caesar that which is Caesars”?

29 comments:

Marvin D. Wilson said...

This DOES make for a good post. A healthy exchange between right and left. I tend to be liberal in my views, but am also for small government - a social lefty with a dislike for Big Brother. In the end, government is not the answer for our societies' problems. It's we the people who must realize we allow these things to happen with our collective apathy and laziness with regard to being informed beyond what the slave media tells us. We the people can create whatever reality we want to if we start from the fundamental mindset and heart of the Golden Rule.

But fat chance those in power will care to ever follow THAT rule. And the unenlightened uninformed masses of proletariat are content to be herded along like sheep as long as they can afford gas and eggs.

an average patriot said...

That is quite a discourse. Everything they were tea partying over Bush did. They screwed the country over and now Obama is outspending Bush to put us back to work and repair the America they let degenerate under Bush and on purpose. Hell those are not stones we are throwing at them they are getting their tea bags back!

betmo said...

it essentially boils down to keynes versus friedman and unfortunately, friedman has had almost unfettered reign for almost 40 years. most folks get caught up in the 'social' issues like oh- abortion, gay marriage, 'traditional values'- when the biggest threat to our country comes from career politicians and multinational corporations. but- it's your rant- and a fine one dave :) it just always seems to me that the right hates the left simply because they enjoy it so.

Sarah Sofia Ganborg said...

Hi!
I saw your comment on torture in aveage ameriacn patriot and thought you might be interested in reading these:
http://livinginscandinavia.blogspot.com/2009/03/torture-ultimate-taboo.html

http://livinginscandinavia.blogspot.com/2009/04/victims.html

greetings from denmark, sarah sofia

Dave Dubya said...

Marvin,
I think "small government" is a mythical concept here in the American Empire. The best we can do is try to get the government back to working for the people instead of the powerful. I'm afraid that is a mythical concept as well.

Jim,
Ha! I love that! They did have more teabags than they could manage to flaunt/throw/brew, etc.

Betmo,
The righties love framing the issues with those simple emotional wedges, don't they?
It seems to get too complicated for most of them when we frame it as anti-corporatist/pro democracy v pro-corporatist/anti-democracy.

Sarah Sofia,
Thank you so much for the links to your very thoughtful posts on torture. I hear Denmark is a wonderful place to live, and to visit as well.

YogaforCynics said...

Interesting conversation.

My view on "big government" is that it's inevitable. The question is whether we're going to have big government of the many (democracy) or big government of the few (oligarchy). Ultimately, what those who clamor for "small government" are calling for, whether they realize it or not, is the latter--a society in which unregulated corporations and fundamentalist megachurches can do whatever they like, regardless of its effect on the rights, and lives, of the rest of us....

Dan said...

Dave,

Your hatred for corporatism is obvious, evident in both our conversation and in previous posts on your blog, but I would love to hear your own personal interpretation of anti-corporatism. To what level should we allow business to exist, if at all, and when and who should make the determination a business is exerting too much influence on government and/or oppressing the people?

I did find it quite interesting that in your last response, seemingly to support your traditionalism, you included a couple of biblical quotes. It would seem logical that the belief in God would prohibit any support for an anti-authoritarian point of view, but certainly quoting from the Bible neither obligates one to read nor believe the contents.

Despite research I remain puzzled by what an anti-authoritarian actually believes. The information seems convoluted, often referencing anarchism (especially concerning war), but yet in other instances the authors seem adamant in separating the two completely. Had I been simplistic in my approach I would have stopped after the first article which claimed the bulk of those believing in anti-authoritarianism are simply criminals. Though the author worked diligently to establish a direct link between neurosis, low IQ scores, and anti-authoritarians, he was unsuccessful in convincing me.

Enlighten me with your views and those of your readership if you so choose.

Dave Dubya said...

Dan,

Thank you for your comment. I’m glad to see your interest in this subject.

Here is my position as simply as I can put it. Corporatism is antithetical to democracy. We need more citizen involvement in government and less influence by the big power brokers.

My concern for the expansion of corporatism in our government, media, and culture was first kindled by the words of our last Republican president who was not primarily a corporatist. Nixon, Ford, Reagan, and the Bushes were all company men who could never say no to any demand or request from Big Business. I would also include Carter, Clinton and Obama as corporatists, albeit to somewhat lesser extents. Nobody gets into the White House in these times without being a company player.

None of today’s corporate media like to acknowledge this message in Eisenhower’s Farewell Address on January 17, 1961.

“This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence -- economic, political, even spiritual -- is felt in every city, every State house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society.

In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.

We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted. Only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of the huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.“

Of course the corporate acquisition of influence in government is not limited to military related industries. We can clearly see the workings of the telecommunications, finance, manufacturing, pharmaceutical, insurance, and large agribusiness sectors as well.

Due to the nature of our system of campaign finance, Big Business has a veritable open channel of legalized bribery. Since the Supreme Court has confused free speech with handing money to politicians, the influence is now institutionalized. Public financed elections would help immensely in solving this situation, but guess who is against that kind of change. Big Money has a lock on our politicians that overcomes any interests or needs of the public.

This is only the foundation of corporatism. The edifice of corporatism has been built by the exponential growth of the lobby industry over the past decades. It is now out of control. Congress itself has become a virtual lobbyist academy. Outgoing congressmen have been moving in droves over to K Street.

Finally the very powerful machinery of corporatism has taken hold to the point where business interests are involved in the actual writing of our laws. You ask how we are to determine too much influence by business. The Bankruptcy Abuse Prevention and Consumer Protection Act of 2005 was largely written by credit card companies. Eighteen corporatist Democratic senators voted with the lock-step Republicans. Now credit card interest rates are exceeding the levels once charged by organized crime syndicates. Don’t you agree this might be a good place to draw the line? How about the influence of the giant telecoms when they got Bush and Obama to amend the FISA law to immunize them for aiding the Bush Administration’s illegal warrantless surveillance of Americans?

And don’t forget the mythical “liberal media” and their lobbying for monopolization in the Telecommunications Act of 1996.
Or maybe we could draw that line at the TARP bank bailouts. Do you see a pattern here of just who is represented in the government? It’s not me and it’s not you and it’s not anyone in our circle of acquaintances. This is something where conservatives and liberals should find mutual concern.

Authoritarians, on the other hand, have no problem with their golden rule. Those with the gold make the rules.

America and the middle class as well as Big Business prospered under regulated capitalism. We need to return to that, ahem, more fair and balanced, system.

Your logic eludes me when you suggest belief in God requires authoritarianism. Jesus was a royal pain to both Roman and Jewish authorities. He taught us to love one another. That is still a radical anti-authoritarian concept towards the interests of wealth and power.

And don’t forget our nation was born of anti-authoritarianism. Revolution against oppressive monarchy is very anti-authoritarian.

I can’t speak for anyone else but those opposed to authoritarianism generally believe in free will and well informed reason, as opposed to blind obedience to political and religious authority figures. Their values are reflected by Thomas Jefferson:

"The price of freedom is eternal vigilance. Whenever the people are well-informed, they can be trusted with their own government."

“If I had to choose between government without newspapers, or newspapers without government, I would unhesitatingly choose the latter.”

Of course this was before conservative American newspapers were owned by the right wing Australian Rupert Murdoch and cult leader Sun Myung Moon.

Dan said...

I cannot in good conscience lay corruption at the feet of corporations. Lobbyist would not have the power they are now afforded if not for the corruption of those serving in government. You must also keep in mind that many non-corporation lobbyists flood the steps of the capital every day. It is our government that bears the responsibility of protecting and defending the people not the corporations. The involvement of government in private business has a nearly perfect record of ineffectiveness. As previously mentioned, the mishandling of the V.A is a perfect example of what we will all face if the government attempts to run healthcare.

It’s funny you should mention telecommunications and government regulation as I worked for five years for AT&T. AT&T was mandated to lease lines to CLEC’s at a discounted rate (below the cost of maintaining the equipment, in fact), required to use their own technicians to repair the CLEC’s lines, and repair them quicker than that of their own or face huge fines (millions of dollars a month were paid out). This continued for years; CLEC’s only provided a company front, never investing in infrastructure or personnel, and why would they? So you see it was only the illusion of competition; subsidized, not by the government this time, but by the company they wished to see suffer.

Make no mistake; unions have become as corrupt as the evil corporations they rail against, precisely the reason I only worked there for five years, but that will be a story for another day.

I can appreciate the Thomas Jefferson quote regarding newspapers and government. New Obama appointee, Rosa Parks, has recently suggested a plan whereby the government would bail out the newspaper industry. The government now has a chunk of the banks and a piece of the auto industry, but I don’t believe even Obama will touch this one.

Surely you jest; even the honest liberals will admit a significant left slant in today’s media.

I stand by observation that a belief in God seems contradictory to an anti-authoritarian stance. You only address a single aspect. Yes, Jesus did defy the authorities of the day and does command us to love one another, but he also demands to be the ultimate authority in our lives. We must surrender to him completely, heart, mind, and soul.

I have no objection to more involvement from ‘the people’ in government, but we can never attain a true democracy and hence will be relegated to only a philosophical discussion of ideals. Our founding fathers realized this and in fact many were wary of a true democracy, and instead they founded a republic.

Brother Tim said...

Spirit and flesh are contrary, one to the other. Spiritual matters are Authoritarian; fleshly matters are anti-Authoritarian, or should be. This was Jesus' message.

Since the beginning of recorded history, avarice has been proven to lead to demise.

When will they ever learn?

Good post, Dave!

Dave Dubya said...

Dan,

Surely you jest about un-corruptible corporate power. Wealth and power fuel corruption. Non-corporate entities have nowhere near the money Big Business has to influence congress. As I pointed out, corporate lobbyists are often recycled congressmen and other government officials who profit by gaming the system. They are interconnected.

Your assertion that “involvement of government in private business has a nearly perfect record of ineffectiveness” depends on just who is calling what ineffective. Let’s look at the reverse and see what involvement by Big Business in government has produced. The destruction of collective bargaining is one of those accomplishments. I agree large unions are prone to corruption as well. But that needn’t concern you very much. Corporatism, Republicanism and conservatism have done much to destroy organized labor in the US. Union membership has gone from 35 percent in the 1950’s to around 12 percent today. They are on their way to extinction. Notice the decline in standard of living, middle class, and access to healthcare coverage over the same period. Two incomes per family are becoming essential now. Also notice the exponential rise in the ratio of executive compensation to labor wages. These are all consequences of private corporate tampering with government, the public’s only source of protection and advocacy.

I also agree with your point about V.A. mismanagement. However Medicare is also government managed health care. How many people do you know who are receiving Medicare health coverage want to refuse those services, and give the insurance companies money instead?

Rosa Parks? I’m sure that was a typo, but again my point is, bailouts are corporate welfare. Welfare for the poor and disabled is microscopic compared to corporate welfare. It’s fascinating how conservatives always seem to side with the interests of Big Money over the general welfare of the people. Remember that annoying “promote the general welfare” part of the Constitution? That is what we need a law abiding government to do for us. Corporate interests are limited to their bottom line. And that is what often conflicts with our general welfare.

I notice you are well indoctrinated by right wing media by your claim that “honest liberals will admit a significant left slant in today’s media.” So the corporate American media are liberal? Sez who? Apart from Rush, Fox, and other radical right wing blowhards, please show me the independent, objective documented basis for this claim. And I will show you three, four, or more times the cases to the contrary. I’ll begin with the corporate media’s unquestioning parroting of the Bush cartel’s propaganda to invade Iraq. Remember Judith Miller of the “liberal” New York Times? She wrote word for word what the White House told her. Then Cheney went on Meet the Press and pointed to those same articles to “validate” his lies. Remember Chris “We’re all Neocons now” Mathews? Give me a break.

I’ll tell you what else I remember. Not once before the invasion did I hear on a national news broadcast any assertion that the Bushies were feeding us false information. In fact, before the 2004 election, the only person with the guts to say Bush lied was Ron Reagan Jr. I take this stuff very seriously and made every effort to monitor this behavior. The only voices to question the mass propaganda were the truly non-corporate independent journalists.

If the lie about liberal media were remotely true there would no Republicans and few Democrats in DC. We’d have a liberal government instead of Constitution shredding corporatist regime.

Remember the Pharisees and Sadducees? They were the self righteous authoritarian clerics of Jesus’ time. And like Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jim Bakker, and Ted Haggerty of today, they were arrogant greedy hypocrites. If Jesus were a similar authoritarian, our compliance to His teachings would be compulsory. We are given the free will to decide to accept or reject His teachings. And we are offered forgiveness as well. Authoritarians do not forgive. You either comply or are regarded as a traitor or an enemy.

The founders detested the authoritarian monarchy. We were set up with a representative democratic republic. Our democratic institutions are being systematically undermined by corporatism.

Thanks for the dialogue, Dan. You taught me something about CLEC’s. I hope we can learn from each other.

**

Brother Tim,

Thanks for looking in, Bro.

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