Monday, June 8, 2020

Comments And Discussion

As often happens, my response to a couple comments under the previous post expanded into a post in itself. It's only proper to question claims as serious as "failed state" and "police state". Further discussion was indeed warranted, and is still welcomed. 

Let’s present the content here instead of in a long thread.

Tyrell (TP):
From failed state to police state, huh? I don't think so, my friend.

While leftists have done what they could to either ignore or undermine our constitution (yes, some militant right-wingers are also guilty), America is still not a failed state. Even for Americans of color, there is more prosperity, opportunities, and freedom in America than nearly anywhere else in the world.

Further, if the Democrats were to recapture the White House and both chambers of congress, this would not become a police state either, since the Democrats are seemingly bound and determined to eliminate the police in most major metropolitan areas. That, of course, is another knee-jerk reaction, the ramifications of which has not evidently occurred to these brilliant leaders of ours.
Oh, I'm waiting with bated breath on a further elaboration on how "leftists" ignore or undermine the Constitution AS WELL as reconciling the ongoing demonstrations with the phrase "Even for Americans of color, there is more prosperity, opportunities, and freedom in America', TP.
I thank the gentlemen for their remarks. 

It’s always revealing that our conservative friends are so reluctant to cite any of my points or opinions offered, and provide facts or information that contradicts them.

I suppose they think just stating their beliefs accomplishes that.

I, too, would love to see further elaboration, and of course evidence, to support TP’s assertions. Historically the pattern would indicate none will be forthcoming.

I don’t know how any “leftists” ignore or undermine the Constitution, since they wield very little power to do so. Maybe this is a red herring to deflect from the blatant abuses of our Constitution by the Republican Party and Donald Trump?

Remember when Moscow Mitch refused to follow the Constitution and hold a vote for a Supreme Court Justice nominated by the Black President? Remember how we used to have Constitutional checks and balances, and administrations would comply with oversight and obey lawful Congressional subpoenas? Remember how Constitutional impeachment trials would allow for actual evidence and testimony?

Rightists love to deflect form these horrible abuses of our Constitution.

The Republican Party has become a gutless cult, serving their criminal and corrupt racist leader. Rep. Justin Amash alone had the moral decency to leave the Republican Party. Mitt Romney was the only Republican In DC with a conscience to vote Trump guilty of his criminal attempts to bribe and blackmail a foreign leader to help win his upcoming election. (Article 2, Sec. 4) That doesn’t bother them any more than Trump’s criminal payoff to a porn star.

It seems "Constitutional conservative" has become an oxymoron.

Remember the First Amendment provisions for a free press? Totally demonized by the Tangerine Tyrant for not kissing his ring. Remember the First Amendment “right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances”?

We have numerous videos of cops gassing and clubbing peaceful protesters, for protesting police violence. Like a police state.

We have a president who said, “I will fight to protect you. I am your President of law and order, and an ally of all peaceful protesters." Minutes earlier it was as if he ordered: "OK, Barr. Smash and gas those peaceful protesters so I can have my Bible photo-op." This is exactly the behavior of a dictator's failed state, verging on a police state.

Even high ranking former Trump officials and other military leaders have called out his lawlessness. Retired Air Force Generals Mark Volcheff and Richard Myers, Admirals Mullen and McRaven, Army and Marine Generals Powell, Kelly and Mattis were just a few of those senior military men outraged by this flagrant and criminal violation of our Constitution.

But, I am open to hearing evidence on how “leftists” are the guilty ones.

I would concede the terms “failed state” and “police state” do not generally apply to wealthy white Americans. They are doing swell. After all, they comprise almost all the economic elites served by a bought and paid for Congress and White House sympathetic to the rich over everyone else.

We are a failed state when it comes to our founders’ ideal of consent of the governed as stated in the Declaration of Independence. We are certainly a failed state if the standard is equal justice under law. Only privileged and rural whites still believe this myth. Voter rights and registration depend on Republican leniency and what color your neighbors are. Republicans, in their open war on democracy, shut down the League of Women Voters from helping with registration. Qualified voters have been purged from rolls. Poll access is another unequal proposition.

Note that I am not including voter ID to counter wildly inflated claims and blatant lies of voter impersonation. Major election fraud has recently been the domain of Republicans. Trump’s taxpayer funded witch hunt for “millions of illegals voting” came up empty.

The Electoral College is a vestige of slave state demands. It is antithetical to representative democracy. The same is truth for the imbalance of representation and power in the Senate. These are direct and intentional impediments to the consent of the governed. The fact is our country was founded by wealthy white men, many being slave owners. Women and African Americans waited over a hundred years for the right to vote. Now we have an authoritarian political party working to reduce the number of voters and their access to their right to vote.

Republicans would prefer Americans standing in line, risking death and disease in a pandemic, rather than allow mail-in ballots.

So yes, the state has failed, and is actively failing, its citizens regarding voter rights and fair elections. The state has failed, and is actively failing, policing the police and providing equal justice under law.

Racial profiling and a long history of police brutality against minorities indicates another characteristic of a failed state. “Qualified immunity” is a concept that protects abusers in law enforcement and is antithetical to justice. Unaccountable police violence is a characteristic of a police state. Tyrell might even agree with this point.

And I agree that Americans of color have “more prosperity, opportunities, and freedom in America than nearly anywhere else in the world.”

The qualifier I would add is “generally” people of color having more prosperity, opportunities, and freedom than “nearly anywhere else”. The last qualifier is important. People of color have opportunities, better health care and better education in other countries.

We certainly have nothing approaching equal opportunity in this country.

Also “driving while black” is one of the freedoms that still eludes many, if not most, African Americans. Anyone who dismisses their real fear of racist cops is uninformed or willfully ignorant.

Trump and Sessions gutted federal measures for police accountability.They drastically limited abilities of federal officials to use court-enforced deals to require reforms at police departments.

I would also love to see evidence that “Democrats are seemingly bound and determined to eliminate the police in most major metropolitan areas.”

Reform is not removal, and the Right stands firmly opposed to reform.

It’s interesting that the Right sees a protester’s “defund the police” sign and assumes it is the Democratic Party platform to eliminate police. Nowhere have I seen a sign demanding “Eliminate the police”. Could that be the real “knee jerk reaction” projected upon Democrats?

This isn’t unusual, since the Right sees things that are not there. They see commies under progressive beds and the Devil between their sheets.


Anonymous said...

Maybe you should discuss John McWhorter's position that anti-racism is a faith.

Dave Dubya said...


Is your problem with anti-racism or faith? I understand his points. Do you?

Since you introduced the subject, feel free to offer your thoughts on McWhorter's view.

He clearly stated, “We don’t want to be a racist. Racism is bad. We know that.”

And you DO realize he is an atheist, right?

Perhaps you’d like to elaborate on the nuances of his position?

If you do, you cannot hide behind anonymity. I only allow one comment from "anonymous".

Discussion is best when participants aren't afraid of putting a name to their positions.

How about using "Just the Facts" or one of your other IDs?

Just the Facts! said...

As expected, Dave does not discuss the position of John McWhorter's that anti-racism is a faith. INSTEAD AS ALWAYS, HE DEFLECTS, asks questions without addressing the subject presented to him. Typical, I don't known why I bother even trying to engage him in honest conversation.

But to answer your question, which you NEVER DO (COWARD?), I agree with McWhorter that anti-racism is a faith, do you?

Dave Dubya said...

There you go. Nice to see you out of the bunker.

You gave it your best. You projected your deflection. You "agree with McWhorter that anti-racism is a faith", but cannot discuss or elaborate.

And I agree with him that, "“We don’t want to be a racist. Racism is bad. We know that".

All standards of morality and decency support this. Racists show us evidence of how bad it is every day. And racism isn't racism to racists.

Now we've heard all we need on the matter.

And since you won't discuss anything in the post, we're finished with your deflections, distractions and projection.

TB3 said...

El Oh El.


Dave Dubya said...

Well, now I've done it. I just don't know what, though. JTF has decided I am a liar and a coward.

I won't publish his accusation, of course. For all we know, his charges may not specifically be related to the discussion. Imagine that.

The "lie" remains a mystery, as does the reason he calls me a coward. Needless to say, he didn't say.

The important thing is clear. It makes him FEEL good to behave that way. Funny how conservatives also claim to adhere to principles, yet never display any.

I guess it feels good to simply accuse and blame and contradict. Providing the evidence and reasons to support their blame and accusations is a bridge too far.

Cons give the distinct impression that it must not feel good to try to think for themselves. Maybe it even hurts their heads.

This could explain their resentment, disorientation, and anger.

TB3 said...

"The important thing is clear. It makes him FEEL good to behave that way. Funny how conservatives also claim to adhere to principles, yet never display any."

There's comfort in denying reality and substituting your own, Dave. Introspection is hard. Admitting to an error or errors is hard and made even harder the more you bury your head or dig your heels in. This is the situation the JTFs of the country deal with.

The compounding factor is that they can be intransigent and it has no meaningful, immediate impact on their lives. It just keeps them in a raging feedback loop where they don't really have to address it. Look how certain politicians/personalities change their tune on things when they have a personal stake in things: Cheney vis-a-vis homosexuality, Megyn Kelly and her tune toward women's health after she goes through a pregnancy and birth.

When the JTFs of the country try desperately to derail topics with ancillary or tangentially-related topics, it's a personal choice on them to not have to think or address the actual topic at hand. That's why sooooo many of them have become outright, naked hypocrites in their support of our horrendous current President and they conveniently forget about their foaming at the mouth at imagined slights by the previous President.

Dave Dubya said...

Right wing American con-servatism and the Republican Party have become a cult, incapable of questioning or condemning the racism, anger, ignorance, and hate from their leader.

I've concluded two bumper-sticker sized truths from observing them.

1. Racism isn't racism to racists.
2. A cult is not a cult to a cult.

Very simple minded notions. "Conservatism is good" and its ends always justify the means. Therefore liberalism, socialism, democracy, public education, journalism, and fair elections are bad. As Colbert noted, "Reality has a well-known liberal bias". This makes reality itself their enemy.

Conservatism is one of their two supreme gods. The "Free market" is the other. White nationalism and the sense of moral/racial superiority are the levers of division the elites employ to retain power.

And that's all you need to allow the economic and corporate elites to rule.

This explains their rigid belief in an ideology that fails standards of truth, morality and decency.

TB3 said...

We, the collective whole that is our society, should really re-evaluate the nomenclature we use. "Conservative" has lost its definition, as it's simply a catch all phrase for 'I'm against that, because that arbitrary group of people are for it'.

This has been proven so many times, I find it unreasonable to call such people "conservative". The Democrats took a Conservative game plan for healthcare reform and "conservatives" knee-jerked into automatically being against it and labeled it communist/socialist/leftist/government take over/death panels.

I quibble with your assertion that they have a rigid belief in an ideology. The election of and continued support for President Trump has put that myth to bed. Their ideology is fluid and dynamic, changing with the tides of whatever the President says it is. Just because they are rigid in their hypocritical defense of the President doesn't mean their beliefs are rigid. The same party of impeached a President for lying about a consensual sex act dismiss a man who unambiguously cheated on all of his wives. The "Family Values" party doggedly defends a man who has multiple families due to multiple wives.

No, the only thing rigid about them is the 30+ years of being indoctrinated into believing it's Us "Conservatives" vs Them "Evil Communists/Socialists/Liberals/Libtards/Feminazis/Activist Judges/The Gay Agenda/Social Justice Warriors/Antifascists"

Hey, if you have time, go visit T.Paine's blog and go through some of his old posts. It's good for a chuckle. So many posts about the Constitution and Debt and Executive Orders.

Dave Dubya said...

Their ideology is indeed fluid, as demonstrated by incessant double standards and their convenient "Doctrine of flexible reality".

The rigidity is the core "conservatism good. Liberalism bad" mentality. As we know definitions are always being reinvented by the Right to accommodate their assaults on whatever issue of the day that annoys them.

After all, how would we even know what "liberal" means, if not for the Right taking exclusive authority to define and redefine it for us?

I'm glad the wisdom and common sense of Mr. Paine is left intact to guide us through these interesting times of America being made great again.

As we've learned, conservatism can never fail, it can only be failed.

It has become a religion. Or more accurately, a cult.

Although it is a pity our expert Constitutional scholar continues to keep his deeper understandings to himself.

U.P. Tim said...

Dave, I finally gave in and bought a computer for home and don't have to rely on the OCC library for access any longer. The library is still closed after four months of shutdown and no idea when it would open again. Now I'll be able to read and learn from your articles and be amused by the debates with the righties. Five COVID cases in Baraga County as of yesterday. Stay safe.

Dave Dubya said...

Hi, Tim.
Nice to see you.
Chuck updated me on your situation last month.
As you can see, we are still eagerly awaiting a cogent explanation of our conservative friend's statements.
We're used to the suspense, though.
Perhaps this is due to the impossibility of a cogent explanation of their beliefs?